Middle East and Persia

[tombom]

This thread is mainly to discuss the middle east. My main idea would be that the area the Timurid Empire now occupys is split up between Transoxania beside the caspian, a decaying (and very decaying) persia and another country in the east. Out of these, Transoxania would be the most important.

Thoughts, comments, ideas etc. welcome.

 

[unmerged(26209)]

How about having the Il Khanate in?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

From what roots would have this Transoxania springed up? What kind of peoples they would be? What happened to uzbehks, khazaks and various mongol mini-hordes?

 

[unmerged(33565)]

This thread is mainly to discuss the middle east. My main idea would be that the area the Timurid Empire now occupys is split up between Transoxania beside the caspian, a decaying (and very decaying) persia and another country in the east. Out of these, Transoxania would be the most important.

Thoughts, comments, ideas etc. welcome.

Somehow we need to make sure that there is some state there that can go up against the Kaliphate in the east. Unforcanatly you have to assume that it will go into Persia very early because it gets its cores within the first 20 years or so (1430 as long as it owns two provances it already has cores on and not at war.) Maybe we need to look at the event that gives the Kaliphate 10 cores in Persia.

Whatever you deciede to do here, try and make it so that no one will go into india for a while, maybe a buffer state on the edge. I will need about 50 years or so to get india really set up well.

 

[Chairman Yang]

If the Kingdom of Jerusalem can present a sharper and longer-lasting thorn in the Kaliphate's side (which has been proposed already I believe), this could slow down the Kaliphate until a big Hindu religion, Hindi culture state can be created from the mini-states of Northern India and start pushing westward.

Alternatively, if my proposed idea of a Buddhist (or Pagan) Mongol/Uzbek/Khazak state that tries to reclaim the lands of the Horde is liked, that could provide an enemy north of Persia for the Kaliphate.

 

[unmerged(25696)]

Alternatively, if my proposed idea of a Buddhist (or Pagan) Mongol/Uzbek/Khazak state that tries to reclaim the lands of the Horde is liked, that could provide an enemy north of Persia for the Kaliphate.

This would need a strong enough pagan to achieve that, and this would mean Persia is stuck between a sunni Caliphate and a buddhist/pagan Monguzbzak state, leaving only Oman as representant of shiism (which is a bit few for one religion IMHO, unless we adopt the proposal of - grr, I don't remember who - of making shiism represent the primitive muslim-like religions that have to be crushed by sunnis).

 

[unmerged(31994)]

I like the idea of turning shias into the pagan like faiths

 

[unmerged(26209)]

How about having a turn of history where zoroastrianism becomes a major religion in Persia, and then spreads to a few of the hordes to the north as well. The old shi'ia could be made into zoroastrianism, which later (if Persia plays its cards right) could advance north into "Russia" and perhaps even into India.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

intresting idea

 

[yourworstnightm]

I don't care what you do, but the Kaliphate need a enemy in the east. Timurids, Transoxania, Uzbeks, Persia , Ilkhanate or whatever. A reqonquering Timurids would solve the problem, but it would be lame. Persia is a great power in the vanilla game and this is abe, Il Khanate would be interresting. What about an alliance between the Ilkhanate and the Uzbeks in the beginning. Then when they both has grown strong they turn against each other.

 

[unmerged(20077)]

If we're assuming that the Caliphs fought off the Mongols in 1258 and Baghdad wasn't sacked, it's hard to see where a Timurid Empire would come from. A Zoroastrian Persia? Hmm, this might be justified historically... in 755 Abu Muslim's execution provoked rebellion against the newly installed Abbassid Caliphs. One rebellion was led by a Zoroastrian, Sunpadh who preached a kind of Muslim - Zoroastrian syncretism. 755 was also the year of the battle of the Talas River. But suppose the Chinese had won and advanced into Eastern Persia? The rebels, backed by China, might have triumphed, and a modified Zoroastrianism could have become re-established.
The Caliphate loses Persia permanently at this point - so when the Mongols arrive, are they too weak to defeat them? Or maybe it was this new Persia that defeated the Mongols... then we keep them out of the Muslim world altogether! In Central Asia, almost any religion could have won out - the Turkic peoples were variously Nestorian Christian, Manichean or Buddhist before Islam advanced.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

The mongols might have skipped Baghdad because they went somewhere else or their initial conquests might have been reduced because the death of Genghis happened earlier triggering the infighting sooner.

 

[unmerged(23409)]

If we're assuming that the Caliphs fought off the Mongols in 1258 and Baghdad wasn't sacked, it's hard to see where a Timurid Empire would come from. A Zoroastrian Persia? Hmm, this might be justified historically... in 755 Abu Muslim's execution provoked rebellion against the newly installed Abbassid Caliphs. One rebellion was led by a Zoroastrian, Sunpadh who preached a kind of Muslim - Zoroastrian syncretism. 755 was also the year of the battle of the Talas River. But suppose the Chinese had won and advanced into Eastern Persia? The rebels, backed by China, might have triumphed, and a modified Zoroastrianism could have become re-established.
The Caliphate loses Persia permanently at this point - so when the Mongols arrive, are they too weak to defeat them? Or maybe it was this new Persia that defeated the Mongols... then we keep them out of the Muslim world altogether! In Central Asia, almost any religion could have won out - the Turkic peoples were variously Nestorian Christian, Manichean or Buddhist before Islam advanced.

A great Idea! Persia could be a mix between Zoroastrianism and Islam. That would be The Kaliphiate's enemy.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Yes, but it will still be Persia, and Persia is already a great power in the area in the vanilla game. I would hope you could find a better name for the Zorastian Persian Empire, what about the name on the ruling dynasty?

 

[unmerged(20077)]

A great Idea! Persia could be a mix between Zoroastrianism and Islam. That would be The Kaliphiate's enemy.

Alevism - http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/htdocs/cult/alev.html

 

[unmerged(20077)]

Yes, but it will still be Persia, and Persia is already a great power in the area in the vanilla game. I would hope you could find a better name for the Zorastian Persian Empire, what about the name on the ruling dynasty?

Well, we don't have a real ruling dynasty of course... we could just pick a random non-Muslim Iranian name and call it the Jemshirid Empire or the Khorsendian Empire or the Marzunid Empire or something.

 

[ZhugeKongming]

Yes, but it will still be Persia, and Persia is already a great power in the area in the vanilla game. I would hope you could find a better name for the Zorastian Persian Empire, what about the name on the ruling dynasty?

Why? It's just a cosmetic change. It means nothing as far as gameplay goes. And that country would still be Persia, no matter what we call it.

 

[TheArchduke]

Actually imo the best plan to solve the overstrong Caliphate would abandoning it and give the Mamelucks a bit of a better punch and let a muslim power in sunni get some power.

 

[unmerged(20077)]

We seem to be split into two camps: those of us who want to look at the consequences of alternative history and those of us just want to create game balance without explaining it in historical terms...