[Minor correction] Province #1744 (Antwerp), border correction and HRE status

[VincentX]

Reporting a small correction to the province of Antwerp (#1744), for your next round of map improvements.

On the current map most of the province lies to the west of the river Scheldt. In reality, the city itself lies at the mouth of the river and the lands associated with it (the margraviate of Antwerp) are all to the east of the river Scheldt, roughly corresponding to the modern day Belgian province of Antwerp.

Additionally, the margraviate of Antwerp was never part of Flanders [remove: country tags 'FLA']. It was part of Brabant since the year 1106 [add: country tags 'BRB'] and part of the Holy Roman Empire [add: hre = yes].

The suggested border adjustment between Ghent [#1865] and Antwerp [#1744] is pictured below. The top pictures depicts the current situation, the bottom picture features the suggested correction.

Below is the part of the provinces.bmp file that I edited. Keep in mind that at least one pixel has to stay connected to water, as Antwerp was (and still is) a very import seaport.

For reference, I include a map of Brabant circa 1250. The red numbers tell in what year the territories were acquired by the dukes of Brabant. Antwerp [Antwerpen] in the bright yellow in the middle of the map. Sub-area borders remain the same up to 1795, when Napoleon redraws the map.

 

[VincentX]

I hate having to do this, as I don't want to appear pushy or arrogant... but we're now 1.14 and this clear error still persists.

A recap of Antwerp's history:

• It has belonged to the Holy Roman Empire since at least 980 (probably earlier), when it became a margraviate under Emperor Otto I.
• It has belonged to the Duchy of Brabant since at least 1106 or 1183, depending on interpretation of titles.
• Since 1106, it has belonged to the County of Flanders for only a single year in 1358, as far as I can find.
• It remained with the Duchy of Brabant as part of the Holy Roman Empire all the way up to 1795, when the duchy was finally disbanded by Napoleon.

Furthermore, if you check a map, you'll notice that the entirety of the old city centre and most of the modern city additions are built on the eastern bank of the Scheldt river (Dutch: Schelde). This is because the river itself was the official dividing line between Brabant and Flanders, with the city of Antwerp and its valuable hinterland belonging entirely to Brabant, while the part that belonged to Flanders was mostly barren and undeveloped in comparison.

I cannot for the life of me see why on Earth it starts as belonging to Flanders in EU4.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

Well, they didn't change/add provinces because they were preoccupied by the nRNW. Hopefully, we'll get some provinces fixes(Samogitia not having a coast is bugging me the most) and new provinces along the next big expansion, probably with 1.16 going by Paradox's update-DLC pattern.

 

[Connacht]

Your contribution is very nice and accurate!

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

Its a shame that the things that are very easy to fix never are fixed.

 

[grommile]

Well, they didn't change/add provinces because they were preoccupied by the nRNW. Hopefully, we'll get some provinces fixes(Samogitia not having a coast is bugging me the most)

Samogitia not having a coast is deliberate, IIRC - as I understand it, the tiny nubbin of coastline it had did not support a significant port fit for serving a navy out of.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Nice idea. The only problem is the strategic consideration as the city is linked though Westerschelde waterways and later era fortifications of Northern Flanders more or less to "States-Flanders" and Waasland, i.e. as in vanilla (in that sense it's not a bad choice from Paradox). Also nominal Antwerp margraviate territory was way much smaller in the 15th-16th centuries than originally in the 11th-12th centuries.

Samogitia not having a coast is deliberate, IIRC - as I understand it, the tiny nubbin of coastline it had did not support a significant port fit for serving a navy out of.

Yep. There were only some very small temporary trade harbour facilities in minor villages of Palanga and Šventoji built in 1685 by the company of English merchants to avoid paying taxes in Prussia and Courland. But they were burnt by the Swedish troops fifteen years later and never restored again.

Also this minor piece of territory was never any kind of obstacle to move troops from Prussia to Courland and vice versa, as the territorial sovereignty wasn't that big issue, especially prior the Peace of Westphalia time.

 

[VincentX]

Nice idea. The only problem is the strategic consideration as the city is linked though Westerschelde waterways and later era fortifications of Northern Flanders more or less to "States-Flanders" and Waasland, i.e. as in vanilla (in that sense it's not a bad choice from Paradox). Also nominal Antwerp margraviate territory was way much smaller in the 15th-16th centuries than originally in the 11th-12th centuries.

Considering the fabulous wealth of Antwerp being a massive boon to Brabant historically, there's a much bigger problem here, if we're talking water in particular. Currently, Brabant has no connection to the sea, which is utterly absurd considering that not only did it have access through Antwerp, but also through the ports of North Brabant (Breda province, for any dev reading), which is currently not connected to the the sea either. I'd say Brabant starting out without a port at all is a rather bigger problem than objections over Waasland.

 

[Trin Tragula]

The borders of the Antwerp province has been bothering me as well and I hope to get to it when the map is revised again at some point.

Its a shame that the things that are very easy to fix never are fixed.

Really? Just since I started working here during the development of AoW the map has been overhauled more than once.
Map updates aren't as frequent as patches in general but we do fix things, the EU4 map is not nearly as static as the EU3 one was back when I got into map modding these games.

 

[VincentX]

Thank you, Trin Tragula! <3

 

[Herr Doctor]

Considering the fabulous wealth of Antwerp being a massive boon to Brabant historically, there's a much bigger problem here, if we're talking water in particular. Currently, Brabant has no connection to the sea, which is utterly absurd considering that not only did it have access through Antwerp, but also through the ports of North Brabant (Breda province, for any dev reading), which is currently not connected to the the sea either. I'd say Brabant starting out without a port at all is a rather bigger problem than objections over Waasland.

I agree with all other arguments you've mentioned - the historical setup would clearly benefit from your suggestion as this Flemish-Brabantian border thing is a quite disturbing.

On the other hand, this all belongs to Big Mama Burgundy.

 

[Grand Historian]

The borders of the Antwerp province has been bothering me as well and I hope to get to it when the map is revised again at some point.



Really? Just since I started working here during the development of AoW the map has been overhauled more than once.
Map updates aren't as frequent as patches in general but we do fix things, the EU4 map is not nearly as static as the EU3 one was back when I got into map modding these games.

I'm just happy to hear that you guys will still be expanding the map! I love it's current state but there's always room for improvement.

Also, while I do like the suggestions made by the OP, I would like to see Antwerp granted a bit more coastline than suggested.

 

[VincentX]

I'm just happy to hear that you guys will still be expanding the map! I love it's current state but there's always room for improvement.

Also, while I do like the suggestions made by the OP, I would like to see Antwerp granted a bit more coastline than suggested.

How about just cutting the landbridge between Zeeland, Antwerp and Breda and making Zeeland into a pure island province like it should be? That would help.

 

[secretam]

Wait, wait, wait. If you look at the historical map, it would mean Antwerpen and Breda should be changed. Breda should have a sea connection by removing the "mainland" Zeeland and making it islands. This looks sort of like the Historical borders mod.

 

[Chief of Staff]

The borders of the Antwerp province has been bothering me as well and I hope to get to it when the map is revised again at some point.



Really? Just since I started working here during the development of AoW the map has been overhauled more than once.
Map updates aren't as frequent as patches in general but we do fix things, the EU4 map is not nearly as static as the EU3 one was back when I got into map modding these games.

I didn't know maps falls under responsibility of scripter or is map kinda script thing?

 

[Trin Tragula]

The map is absolutely worked on by scripters. It's one of my favorite parts of this job in fact
As with everything else important decisions related to it are made by the project lead though.