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Minor Dynasties?

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Alhazen

Alhazen

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I dont know if this has been asked yet, if so, I apologize..but the game is based on playing the families of royalty..I wonder if this limits the amount of playable realms to actual royal lines recognized by the Catholic Church? Will we for example be able to play as lesser noble familes, that were historically counts or dukes? Id enjoy playing as the counts of flanders , for example.Rasing a huge advanced army at Bruges would be much fun, subduing english and french claims.
 
This is a matter yet do be decided finally. The basic view is that only sovereign rulers are playable. Then there has been mentioned that some of the more powerful Princes/Dukes could be playable too (since they were more on par with kings - powerwise). Then there has also been mentioning that it would be testing of the possibility of playing vassals...

But as a ground rule you can assume that only those who were soveregn rulers are playable. Then whatever apart from that are pleasant surprises :)
 
Huh? I thought this was supposed to be the whole point and aim of the game?

You start with a minor lord somewhere with fealty to some Count who is turn has fealty to some Duke etc, all the way up to the King. Then by plotting you work your way up to the throne.

For example, you marry your heir to Duke X's daughter and then arrange or pray that all Duke X' sons die off, so your family inherits Duke X's title. Or maybe you are so decisive in a civil war that your leige gives you some rebel Duke's lands and promotion to Duke yourself. That sort of thing.

Please tell me I am not wrong! :(
 
Originally posted by Rogan
Huh? I thought this was supposed to be the whole point and aim of the game?

You start with a minor lord somewhere with fealty to some Count who is turn has fealty to some Duke etc, all the way up to the King. Then by plotting you work your way up to the throne.

For example, you marry your heir to Duke X's daughter and then arrange or pray that all Duke X' sons die off, so your family inherits Duke X's title. Or maybe you are so decisive in a civil war that your leige gives you some rebel Duke's lands and promotion to Duke yourself. That sort of thing.

Please tell me I am not wrong! :(
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Well, I'm sorry - but you are wrong. The focus of the game has been sovereign lords all the time since it was announced. You can still do the things you describe above, but on a grander scale.
 
Originally posted by Havard
Well, I'm sorry - but you are wrong. The focus of the game has been sovereign lords all the time since it was announced. You can still do the things you describe above, but on a grander scale.
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nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
given the strategic scope of the game and the size of the provinces, i'd say that playing minor dynasties is out of the question, although if i remember correctly every province will have its own lord with unique family trees allowing interaction etc.

but if you screw up ont he first few turns, your area of control might very soon limit itself to but a handful of provinces and possibly you might becoma a vassal of a stronger neighbour so dont worry ;) :D
 
Originally posted by Havard
The title itself, Crusader Kings, should give a pretty strong hint I'd say...
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I guess this might answer some questions but...

Whats going to happen when a Crusader King becomes a vassal of some other Crusader King?

The only way to avoid it in alot of cases I would guess is to make kings above vassalage to someone else...
Do you think kings being vassals to other kings is going to be implemented?

Seems to me if that is implemented there is little reason not to make playable the more important of non-Kings.

Thank You
~EC~
 
Kings as vassals of other kings is a non-issue if you look at history. The only cases I can think of where a King is a vassal are the relationships between the Bohemian (and, possibly, the Polish) king and the Holy Roman Emperor; The Latin Empire of Constantinople and the Kingdom of Thessalonica and the Sicilian King and the Pope. In common for all these is the fact that their liege lord was not a King.
 
Originally posted by Havard
Kings as vassals of other kings is a non-issue if you look at history. The only cases I can think of where a King is a vassal are the relationships between the Bohemian (and, possibly, the Polish) king and the Holy Roman Emperor; The Latin Empire of Constantinople and the Kingdom of Thessalonica and the Sicilian King and the Pope. In common for all these is the fact that their liege lord was not a King.
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How about Naples and Sicily? IIRC, Aragonese Sicily was theoretically a vassal of Angevin Naples.

Also, I believe Henry II secured overlordship of Scotland (Richard I gave it up), and John Bailiol was the vassal of Edward I.
 
Originally posted by Havard
Kings as vassals of other kings is a non-issue if you look at history. The only cases I can think of where a King is a vassal are the relationships between the Bohemian (and, possibly, the Polish) king and the Holy Roman Emperor; The Latin Empire of Constantinople and the Kingdom of Thessalonica and the Sicilian King and the Pope. In common for all these is the fact that their liege lord was not a King.
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You didn't quite get what I was asking about... I said when a king becomes a vassal of another king. I seem to recall the inheritances listed in the developer diary as having absolutely no connection with history, so for me history is the non-issue here.

What I am curious about however is how will that be handled in the game, since unless kingdoms are the only thing inheritable, there WILL be kings that are vassals of other kings in the game.

So again will kings become vassals of other kings in this game? If so wouldn't the mechanics be fairly similar to the mechanics of starting as a major land-owning vassal of a king to begin with?

BTW without the issue of vassalage of Kings to other kings, England will in time be missing a big chunk of it's history it seems to me.
 
Originally posted by ErmineClad
You didn't quite get what I was asking about... I said when a king becomes a vassal of another king. I seem to recall the inheritances listed in the developer diary as having absolutely no connection with history, so for me history is the non-issue here.

What I am curious about however is how will that be handled in the game, since unless kingdoms are the only thing inheritable, there WILL be kings that are vassals of other kings in the game.
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No. I won't say that. If e.g. the Norwegian crown is inherited by the King of Navarra he is the King of Norway, not liege-lord to the king of Norway...

If a kingdom is inherited by a king of another kingdom they will be united. Permanently or temporarily...


So again will kings become vassals of other kings in this game? If so wouldn't the mechanics be fairly similar to the mechanics of starting as a major land-owning vassal of a king to begin with?
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As I said earlier the possibility of making larger vassals playable will be looked into, but we shouldn't expect them to be...


BTW without the issue of vassalage of Kings to other kings, England will in time be missing a big chunk of it's history it seems to me.
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Like...?
 
Think I shall say no King can be vassal of other King in the condition of King :p

For example the King of England was vassal to the King of France not as King of England but as Duke of Normandy :p
 
Originally posted by Txini
Think I shall say no King can be vassal of other King in the condition of King :p

For example the King of England was vassal to the King of France not as King of England but as Duke of Normandy :p
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This is very true, he was vassal starting with Normandy, but with Eleanor of Aquitaine and Eleanor of Ponthieu it becomes many more titles that homage is owed to France.

But that's what I'm wondering, will in the capacity as Duc of Normandy the King of England be expected to render service to the King of France?

Will say the King of Castille be expected to render service to France if he is also the Count of Champagne?

If so I'm wondering about how the game will handle it, and what is so different about those mechancs from the mechancis of someone that starts as a major non-king...

Perhaps all of this has been addressed before but I have not the time to go diving into all of the topics in the vein hope of finding out, which is why I'm hoping someone will know.

If the game is only a simulation of the crusades there is no need to really simulate any of PC vassalage because that would simply get in the way of the game flow. However if the game attempts to simulate feudalism, then it will mean a much more complicated matter for the reason you mentioned.

Thank You
~EC~
 
Hopefully it will simulate the above (and things like Muslim vassals to Christian kings) , otherwise there's always the chance it is solved in CK2 :)
 
This is all very interesting with the Duke of Normandy being a vassal of the King of France, but while the Duke of Normandy is King of England as well, that means that England is the vassal of France... Bah, lets just go to war for a 100+ years to settle it... ;)

But anyway, couldn't this happen in some other way? Such as the count of York inheriting Sweden if nobody else has as good a claim. Could I not load up as the now respectfully powerful dynasty of Count X? Or despite how powerful they become, will some families just be unplayable? Or... :eek: if my family dies out... am I out of the game? Or do I come into the next person in line to take over for me, whether or not he is of my original dynasty...

Also, could a Portugal scenario come along where the King tweaks out, and him and half his nobles go stampeding into Morocco, and never return... By this I mean, can your nobles die in battle? Are they "leaders" by Eu2 terms? Or how does this work?
 
Is that how it works? is the man a vassal as the man ( or woman ) or vassal as the duke/count of a certain tract of land?

If the Duke of Burgundy for example conquers the holy land and makes a kingdom there, is that kingdom not subordinate to france because its king is a vassal as duke of burgundy?
 
Originally posted by N Katsyev
This is all very interesting with the Duke of Normandy being a vassal of the King of France, but while the Duke of Normandy is King of England as well, that means that England is the vassal of France... Bah, lets just go to war for a 100+ years to settle it... ;)
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It does NOT mean that England were vassals of France. The king of England held several fiefs in France, but as king of England he was never a vassal...


But anyway, couldn't this happen in some other way? Such as the count of York inheriting Sweden if nobody else has as good a claim.
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You mean like when count Foulques V of Anjou became king Foulques I of Jerusalem? Or count Henri II of Champagne became king Henri I of same? Plenty of other examples throughout history.



Could I not load up as the now respectfully powerful dynasty of Count X? Or despite how powerful they become, will some families just be unplayable? Or... :eek: if my family dies out... am I out of the game? Or do I come into the next person in line to take over for me, whether or not he is of my original dynasty...

Also, could a Portugal scenario come along where the King tweaks out, and him and half his nobles go stampeding into Morocco, and never return... By this I mean, can your nobles die in battle? Are they "leaders" by Eu2 terms? Or how does this work?
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Detail of how these cases will play out is not known.
 
Originally posted by Jaron
Is that how it works? is the man a vassal as the man ( or woman ) or vassal as the duke/count of a certain tract of land?

If the Duke of Burgundy for example conquers the holy land and makes a kingdom there, is that kingdom not subordinate to france because its king is a vassal as duke of burgundy?
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I'm not sure entirely, and it gets even more complex when you consider that of lands given out, the lion's share weren't hereditary ( I can't remember the proper word here). Like say, you are loyal to me through an entire campaign, fight by my side and offer vital assistance. At the end of the war i've gained 3 provinces lets say. As a reward I give you two, however one of which, I say will not be hereditary, which means when you die, it reverts back to my lineage, the other of course belongs to your family for now on... but then, the funny thing is that its all my land in the end anyway as I am the leige lord. ;)
 
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