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SolarGuy

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Aug 12, 2015
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I'd really like some suggestions for what to add into the mod.


Once Stellaris comes out and has gotten past the possibly-heavy-bugs-after-release (if there are any ;)), I will start creating a mod that revolves around pre-FTL civilisations. But not in the way you normally see in Stellaris:
You will actually be able to travel to other solar systems, but that will happen at sublight speed in the beginning! There will probably be several levels of sublight engines (not too many actually, it would get boring at 0.000001% lightspeed) that you can travel to other stars with, but it will take you some time (or luck with the tech cards) to actually get to FTL propulsion systems. The last one before the normal FTL drives will most likely be at (almost-)lightspeed, so that a star ten lightyears away will have a travel time of ten years.
Sublight travel will resemble Warp Drive from the normal game, but it will be listed seperately.
To get FTL drives, you'll need to research everything to the end of sublight travel. Or you find something on a planet, but that planet might not be in your home system.

To make the "sublight game" more interesting, there could be event chains in the solar systems around your homeworld. I'd like to have suggestions especially for this particular part of the mod, so the events get some more variety. There have to be many of them. And maybe some of you have ideas for what else besides event chains could be added into the mod?

The game will start at sublight speed for normal empires, maybe at FTL speed for the advanced normal empires (?), and the Fallen Empires will still have their Jump Drives (and Yump Drives) to scare people with.

And I know that I'm using round brackets (and sometimes squared brackets as well) far too often :D
 
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@SolarGuy
Thinking of a pre-ftl game, most of what should happen to the species should be internal.

This means heaps of internal factions (IE different nations and stuff)... different events happening based on that. Hell you can base most of your events off real life. IE 2 factions warring against each other (which would be 2 countries).. terroist bombing... attempting to prevent nuclear disaster. The nations forming a UN, ETC ETC

As well as that there should be a main event chain that relates to how your planet is coming together. Since pre-ftl it is generally different nations ruling the one planet. So different pop tiles should have different ethos. As you get closer and closer to FTL you are slowly changing the pops to your desired ethos and setting the stage for the government type you are going to have. When you blossam into an FTL you could have heaps of pops with heaps of different ethics, or you could have worked to aggressively get all the pops into line.

Hope these ideas help you.
 
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@SolarGuy
Thinking of a pre-ftl game, most of what should happen to the species should be internal.

This means heaps of internal factions (IE different nations and stuff)... different events happening based on that. Hell you can base most of your events off real life. IE 2 factions warring against each other (which would be 2 countries).. terroist bombing... attempting to prevent nuclear disaster. The nations forming a UN, ETC ETC
I think I could do that by letting the game create a few factions, like three or four or even more, on your homeworld. Colonies on other planets (most likely just in your own system for a while, and none at all in the early beginning) could be automatically assigned to an existing faction. Or maybe a seperate faction like "USA - Mars Colony" to make rebellions of the colonies easier to do.
Some notes/ideas about how to possibly do some of your ideas:

- War: Event chain that kills pops within all warring factions, one pop after a month. May or may not include colony worlds. Colonies of a faction are automatically drawn into the war, if that's programmable (like "Event: War | Participants: All factions with "Nation1" in their name + all factions with "Nation2" in their name"?). If it's not, colonies will possibly not get their own factions, which would be a sad thing. It might kill both nations, or just one of them, or maybe both will stay intact. The event will be programmed as an event chain to make it last longer. Structures might also get damaged, but not too much, losing pops is the worst thing of this.
If one side of the war has 30% as many pops as the other side, it will automatically surrender the rest of the pops to prevent extinction.
Also, there is a modifier for any nation that will determine its likelihood to actually lose a pop in any month of the war. This will display the military strength of the nation (more strength = more troops that can defend their nation or attack the enemy = less chances for the enemy to break through and kill pops). The modifier will never be at 0.

- Nuclear War: You get to hear about tensions rising on the planet maybe a year before the war begins, and by your decisions (that have to be made quickly, one event per month!) you may or may not prevent the war. Not preventing it means that all but a few pops (usually 1 or 2) will die and all infrastructure will be destroyed or labelled as "ruins". Ruins can be rebuilt with half the cost of building them from scratch. Roughly 10% of the planet will be ruins after a nuclear war, the rest destroyed (inexistant). All planet tiles will get a "radiation" modifier (as always, if possible to program) which will create the chance for any pop on them to change into a mutation (done by an event much like the "Genetically Modified Colonists" event). Mutations will look slightly different from their original species (but will usually not change too much to stay recognisable) and have randomly determined traits, but their ethos won't change (as far as I planned, this might change in the future). Nuclear Wars will also make your technological level drop rapidly, depending on your actions before the war and the technological level of the planet's nuclear arsenal (more boom = more destruction = less knowledge preserved).
You can NOT prevent a nuclear war by not developing nuclear weaponry, because every species will have those (at a low level though) in the beginning of the game. You are able to just never improve these weapons though, to make your species less likely to get wiped out completely when this happens. Or you DO improve it until you get nuclear weapons that will only kill pops but won't create radiated tiles on your planet. But there will be a reason to develop nuclear weapons of a higher level, and you might not want to start doing this too late.

- The UN (or your alien UN-equivalent): Very early in the game, an event chain will start that will need your decisions to create a UN-like organisation on your planet. If you make it through all stages, of which there will be several, you will be rewarded by having only one faction in the end, which will be the "Loyalist Faction" we know from the normal game. If you made the optimal decisions for the UN creation (which will be procedural, every decision just has a different chance of being good for the UN!) and then were lucky enough, the pops also won't be all too different in their ethoses. With the UN approach, the population will feel more as one equal society, at the cost of them having a free will and not being forced to think in certain ways.

I'm not quite sure yet about one thing: Should the player play as the whole species, or just as one nation? I'd say it should be the whole species, so you don't lose because of a nuclear war that eradicated all pops of your nation. In case I took the "whole species" way of doing it, here is an addition to the UN:
- If you don't want an UN though, you might want to fund one nation to a state where it could easily beat all other nations going to war with them. This will work like the anti-faction-actions of the normal game, just in reverse: It will increase the likelihood of the funded nation to go to war, and its likelihood to not lose a pop every month when within a war, as explained in the note about War.


But these are just some ideas I had quite suddenly, if there is any flaw with them or you want to make additions/changes, just let me know :)
 
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[notes about spaceships]
1) A low level spacecraft can potentially have malfunctions. The probability for this is reduced by higher ship construction tech. (?)
2) There will be some more ship types, all coming before the normal Stellaris ships:
- Probes: Probes don't cost much and can operate with very low maintenance costs. Probes are a slow but reliable and can be used for scanning planets and travelling to other solar systems. They can't have scientists, as they have no crew at all, so you need manned ships to explore the potentially found anomalies.
- Satellites: Satellites are basically just stations that use the minimum-distance-from-any-object mechanic of normal stations, but in reverse. You need to build them around a planet, but you can't build many of them around one place because of the low station limit you are going to have, and they only have to be close to a planet but are still blocked by satellites around them. Does anyone have ideas on how to make them useful? I might attach some weapon slots to them to make them good defensive stations...
- Manned spacecrafts: They can be used for anything, ranging from bombing a rebellious colony to death, exploration, surveying a system more deeply and researching its anomalies...
3) Spaceships are in space. This is important to note. Otherwise I might forget about this fact.

[notes about making colonies a less normal game mechanic]

1) When you send a colony ship, this will of course fly very slowly even inside a system. And in the very beginning of the game, it will need decades and centuries to get to the nearest star. Colonies cannot be hit by a nuclear war by the way, so they are a good way of surviving such a war. Okay, technically you wouldn't straightaway die from a nuclear war, it's just that everybody mutates and your civilisation is thrown back by centuries of technological development :p
2) Colony Tech with several stages! I just had that idea this morning: You research a colony tech level 1, it gives you one tile to build on. The rest will be tile blockers that are created through an event that looks for your colony tech level for that specific planet type. You either (1) get the tile blocker remover tech for the next few tiles, or (2) a new colony tech level starts a background-event that will clear two tile blockers. The colony tech will also include barren (for example Luna) and probably even volcanic (like Venus) planets.
 
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With regard to making satellites useful, looking at how we use satellites and stations might be a good way to start (note, the further down the list, the more into sci-fi they go!), for instance:

Space Station (could be a precursor to a vanilla shipyard) which gives extra science.

Communications satellites, there could be a couple of variations on this depending on what ethics you're going for, for instance, ones that reduce ethics divergence by broadcasting propaganda. Or ones that allow for global communication, which increases the chance of ethics divergence, but either reduces the chance of, or gives a better chance of good outcomes for events like nuclear war, as there's greater public understanding of it.

Geological Survey satellites, again, potential for different types, to either boost the chance of history related event chains, or to boost mineral generation by identifying better mining locations.

Solar arrays, or other power generation for energy credits.

Defence platforms, like the vanilla ones, but less weapons and tech.

Large reflectors to boost food production on the planet, gives a bonus percentage to planetary food production.


I have another thought on how they could work, and rather than limiting them by placement similar to the vanilla defence stations, you could have a cap on each planet, depending on tech,. However, the more satellites you have in orbit, the greater the chance of difficulties, eg. event chains due to orbital debris and lack of orbital space, alternatively, you could have a limit, but have the satellites with a lifespan, once they have reached that lifespan, there's a chance of an event which means they can't be de-orbited, which increases the chance of future orbital event chains. Ideas for such chains:

Debris damages a satellite, can be fixed at a cost or de-orbited.

De-orbit failure, early tech, no option to do anything, with later tech, perhaps an option to be able to collect it from orbit.

When launching a ship, chance of it being slightly damaged due to debris.

Unplanned de-orbit, either due to a collision or equipment failure, causes minor panic in population, giving a slight happiness negative.


Just some random thoughts from me anyway!
 
A pre-FTL civilisation would rely largely on long-distance sensors to discover potential worlds for colonization (though of course any data they receive is outdated because it took years for the light to get here), and colonization would have to be done by either suspending the colonists in cryostasis for the duration of the flight, or by using generation ships that just have the crew spawn new generations of colonists until the ship arrives.

The latter also means that ethos drift might occur during the flight since after the original generation dies out, nobody aboard the ship has any memories left of their home world or the original ideals they set out under.

There's a game on Steam called Analogue: A Hate Story that illustrates nicely how something like that might turn out. It's about a generation ship that was in space for such a long time its crew suffered from radical ethos drift.
 
A pre-FTL civilisation would rely largely on long-distance sensors to discover potential worlds for colonization (though of course any data they receive is outdated because it took years for the light to get here), and colonization would have to be done by either suspending the colonists in cryostasis for the duration of the flight, or by using generation ships that just have the crew spawn new generations of colonists until the ship arrives.

The latter also means that ethos drift might occur during the flight since after the original generation dies out, nobody aboard the ship has any memories left of their home world or the original ideals they set out under.

First, broadly to the OP mod direction: I am fascinated by your product and/or service, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. The rest of this is going to be a breainstorming exercise....

The assumption here is that this is toward a pre-FTL game. Not a pre-spaceflight game. I'd contend that our current civilization, as humans, is effectively pre-spaceflight in that we have no real capability developed to utilize space to benefit us--just a little research maybe, but no ongoing energy or mineral extraction. So, this assumption implies that the player should start with a base higher ability to move things into orbit. If you really wanted to take a step back, then at least make one of the first tech choices be a selection of heavy-lift methods (space elevator, reaction boost, acceleration sling)--that could open interesting events later on....

You have a couple ways to go, but I think keeping things less-fiddly is probably in the spirit of Stellaris. Namely, abstract satellites with tech (they are for science and communication, mainly, or maybe together in a system for offense/defense) and make "space platforms" be where you're putting the meaningful weapons and resource extraction avenues. These are like lesser versions of mining stations and outposts--though the mining/research station itself is simple enough you may not want to mess with it... perhaps just early versions that cost more to build initially and reduce to "base Stellaris cost" as you improve in tech?

You'll want to think carefully about the transition from pre-FTL play to post-FTL play. I think the approach, socially that is, is correct: that prior to FTL the main struggle is around ethos and factions and attempting to create a unified race with which to face the galaxy. While keeping research going and funding enough exploration and settlement to ensure if things blow up you have people left. Once FTL is achieved the faction to which it is associated has a huge advantage, socially speaking. You basically have solved the energy puzzle and can dictate terms to other, less-developed factions. If they don't like those terms--which they might not--then they can steal ships and run away as per a few existing early event chains; you still end up with a unified planet and uniform ethos, quickly.

The player should start with an orbital space station. This would be your spaceport for building ships and essentially have no offense/defense capability in an un-upgraded state. Eventually you would be able to upgrade it into a transition to the base Stellaris station, once you've researched up to a starting weapon tech (and passed through other stages representing its capability growth).

Science development ought to be slow. Very slow. Possibly really only driven in meaningful ways through event-based science breakthroughs and findings. This could be modeled by just making the pathway techs to FTL and base Stellaris equipment very expensive to research. That herds players toward choosing quick wins in sublight tech areas.

On the note of science paths toward FTL, the game should be aware of which ones you've started down, and weigh event discoveries toward that. An easy example could be finding an ancient stargate at the edge of the system--which would still not impart the ability to A) operate it yet, or B) understand how they work, or let alone C) build them.

Here's an idea on how to handle pre-FTL colonization:
1. Build "settlement ships" and "settlement arks". The former are for in-system use. The latter are deep-space vessels.
2. Both provide a single settlement tile on the target planet, the habitability of which should be irrelevant. You can plop a settlement down anywhere, but whether it will thrive is another matter.
3. Once a planet has a settlement (agro, mining or research--all should produce food for 1 pop), it can build additional basic buildings (or more settlements if you want to) on other tiles. Only once a tile is built on can a pop be moved to it. This represents special habitation measures needed.
4. On building a settlement or other pre-FTL building on a tile--whether the first or a subsequent build--two checks should be made: first whether there is a disaster that wipes out a settlement, and second for an event or discovery. This would be where you would get ethos drift in colonist pops, research boosts, alien finds, special energy or ore bonuses, and influence that affects the homeworld.

Note: one of the main ways to get additional growth would be to build more settlement ships/arks and just land more people thereby.

I'm actually not sure if in current Stellaris building a colony ship creates a new pop, or if it is drawn from the homeworld population. Personally I think it should be the latter, but I think it is the former.

You could also do "surveying" of planets by building probe ships and/or expeditions. Which function much like colony ships in that you plop "something" down on a planet tile. This would trigger an event chain that can discover something useful much like settlers do, for that tile. Whether the probe/expedition stays behind on the tile is up to you--if yes, then that could be useful as a "known" event trigger should you get a settlement on the planet later and upgrade that tile to a real building. (It would also prevent just spamming a single tile for new events, which is immersion-breaking.) Think pre-positioned resources (so to speak), plus data collected but not transmitted, observations on long-term environment effects, etc. Obviously a probe or expedition's failure and/or success could have a significant effect on the homeworld factions/pops.

Basically the game would function as a kind of lite Victoria 2-in-Spaaaaace. Which would be terribly cool. (I'd like to imagine, BTW, that you might be able to achieve a kind of Space 1889 feel with some of the tech/decisions.)

If the homeworld is all or mostly destroyed in a disaster (nuclear war, asteroid, biological plague, zombies, extra-dimension invasion of angels/demons [apocalypse], financial meltdown, luddite revolution, core drilling, moon breaks in half, etc. etc.) then you have a couple scenarios:

1. A few tiles survive the destruction with pops on them. Then you can rebuild and carry on. Possibly treating the pops as if they were settling their own homeworld, and let them make discoveries as they clear tiles and build new buildings--after all, not everything was trashed, right?

2. No pops survive. The planet can be flagged for discovery when surveyed: maybe there are scattered groups that could be reconstituted into a pop should the homeworld be re-colonized [event]? Maybe a research project opens to understand what happened and glean lessons/technology from it? Maybe there are active remnants of hazardous influences on the planet? Maybe whatever creatures are alive down there are now sufficiently different that they represent a new civilization in the Stellaris sense of natives? Maybe whatever creatures are alive down there are now no more than hostile environment hazards (giant radioactive lizards, zombies, demons, dangerous robots, intelligent apes, etc.)?

3. No pops survive and you have no pops off-planet. Game over. Your civilization's demise will serve to instruct another.

On planetary buildings: players should not start with administrative centers/capitals in the Stellaris use of the building. Better to have metropolitan zones, which can be upgraded to administrative centers. The tech to do so would be an important step toward planetary centralization.

Enough for now.

Edit: Nevermind, ok more: a good way you could model a civil war would simply be to "land" faction military forces on the planet and let it duke it out with the presumptive ruling group's forces. Whether or not this includes limited use of mass-destruction weapons could be based on the faction ethos, pop ethos and the policies set. I don't know if it's possible to change the name of policies dynamically during gameplay, but you could treat "orbital bombardment" as a proxy for "WMD application". Which WMD could be based on techs developed.

If you cannot change policy names dynamically, then a separate section of pre-FTL policies should probably be provided (and then hidden later?). These policies should be a significant lever with which to nudge the people toward full unification.

--Khanwulf
 
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For some reason, the forum bugged around and didn't tell me that people answered here. I thought it was forgotten :(
Anyways, I hope I can implement the first level pre-FTL drive tomorrow :) I wonder what would be the speed of light, using "ship_interstellar_speed_mult = X.X"; Warp Drive 2 has 0.2 here, but what would be speed of light?

@Khanwulf Is it possible to change the ships you get in the beginning? I'd like to have either no ships at all (only a space station) or a normal probe to survey a little bit.

Note to myself: component templates -> 00_utilities_drives
 
Unfortunately I'm not a modder and have no idea if starting ships are possible to change. I would assume yes, however. Paradox has tried pretty hard to make most everything affected by mods, so that seems reasonable.

An unmanned probe would be a reasonable thing to start with, especially if the probe self-destructs during planetary survey (it's used up in the process, effectively). That would mean the task of even doing a token survey of the home system would require building quite a few probes or researching extended space travel to support manned expeditions.

--Khanwulf
 
Apologies for the thread necromancy, but I independently had a similar idea and found this thread in my search for advice on implementing STL travel for my PRe-FTL Players mod. It sounds like we should collaborate.

I'm assuming the usual Clausewitz engine limit of 0.001 increments applies to the warp speed define. That translates to 12.5 game years to do a max distance warp drive jump. My intent is to set that as base warp speed and create an STL drive component given by all three starting drive techs (my mod already moves the actual FTL drives to a researchable tech, the starters just represent theoretical breakthrus). I'd restrict that STL drive to colony ships to represent generational ships. I'd then mod the warp drive FTL tech to give a 200% multiplier to go back to vanilla warp speed once warp FTL gets researched.

One issue will be the colony ship maintenance, 8 energy a month for 12.5 years is crushing.

At any rate, I'm currently down in the weeds of coding something along these lines and it sounds like you have a much grander vision that I'd be interested in working with you on.
 
Apologies for the thread necromancy, but I independently had a similar idea and found this thread in my search for advice on implementing STL travel for my PRe-FTL Players mod. It sounds like we should collaborate.

I'm assuming the usual Clausewitz engine limit of 0.001 increments applies to the warp speed define. That translates to 12.5 game years to do a max distance warp drive jump. My intent is to set that as base warp speed and create an STL drive component given by all three starting drive techs (my mod already moves the actual FTL drives to a researchable tech, the starters just represent theoretical breakthrus). I'd restrict that STL drive to colony ships to represent generational ships. I'd then mod the warp drive FTL tech to give a 200% multiplier to go back to vanilla warp speed once warp FTL gets researched.

One issue will be the colony ship maintenance, 8 energy a month for 12.5 years is crushing.

At any rate, I'm currently down in the weeds of coding something along these lines and it sounds like you have a much grander vision that I'd be interested in working with you on.
Well, to be honest, all these "plans" were made before the release and I thought of "factions" in a much different way. It seems like they can't be used in the way I originally imagined (or at least that's far beyond my understanding of modding).

That's why I'd rather focus on the pre-FTL events in your home system. I would like to create something similar to the anomalies that only appear in the tutorial mode, with FTL tech standing at the end (or maybe just in the middle?) of the event chain. One planet could have ancient ruins from which you get advanced sensor tech, which then allows you to see an FTL trail in a neighbouring system. That FTL trail then leads to some more story that then gives you FTL technology in the end.
Maybe there could even be several of these event chains that exclude eachother.

For the sublight engines, I think the warp drive could be modded for it pretty easily. As you said, it could be set to a very low speed. And maybe it should have an infinite range? I mean, sublight engines are not restricted by any range. This range could also be normalised by warp drive tech then.
Also, besides the generation ships there could also be probes that we send out first to see where stuff is.
Colony ships would come much later in the game I think. Still early, but not in the first few years. Maybe these important technological advances could also be regulated via events that give us certain techs at certain times? Of course this wouldn't apply to FTL technology (we get it from event chains) but sublight probes could be a first-month technology, colony ships usable after 15 years, etc.

What could turn out to be problematic are the space monsters. They could really destroy everything. I also think that space monsters (Tiyanki/Amoebas after a few months) shouldn't be the first thing we encounter in space. Maybe those two should be turned off? And what about the rest (drones and crystalloids)? We can find them randomly scattered across the galaxy and they could really hinder our efforts of exploring space and founding colonies.