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Dec 20, 2001
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1939 MP: My impression is that no one seems to do it.

But I am far more interested in the historical scenario(s) than in the semi-fictional one, so this is another try to start a thread devoted specifically to 1939.

Whenever I talked 1939 in the other threads in this forum, everybody assumed I was talking 1936, and started babbling about Chechoslovakia, Anschluß and what not, so this thread is assuredly needed. :D
 
I like 1939 too, but Germany is very powerful. With the lack of effects from the winter Germany can smash the Soviet Union and take France and Poland in less than a month. Britain isn't even a threat.
 
I like the 1939 scenario for MP. The group I play with prefers it too. 1936 is pretty ridiculous research wise. Besides, Germany needs to have the right event outcomes to have a chance (Anschluss, Munich) otherwise they run into problems. I think the Soviets are quite strong in the 1939 scenario. I played an MP session as Germany vs the UK and USSR, and it's not so easy to fight a two-front war against France (even while AI controlled) and the USSR at the same time.

b.
 
Originally posted by Prince Eugene
I like 1939 too, but Germany is very powerful. With the lack of effects from the winter Germany can smash the Soviet Union and take France and Poland in less than a month. Britain isn't even a threat.

Yeah, the setup is badly f***ed up. Any ideas to work around this? What about the following House Rule:

*No one may use Diplomatic Options (including Declare War) before April, 1940, nor may Germany invade Britain. #Sitzkrieg Rule
 
Originally posted by Munchkin
Any ideas to work around this?

Get a decent SU player.
Playing SU I'll defeat Germany + Italy any day in '39 as long as there is no Japanese player and at least one Allied player. :)
 
Originally posted by Isebrand
Get a decent SU player.
Playing SU I'll defeat Germany + Italy any day in '39 as long as there is no Japanese player and at least one Allied player. :)

You are really talking about the 1939 scenario, ver1.03, Germany/Italy vs. Soviet Union/Whoever?

Do you use any House Rules (such as No Tech Transfer)? I hope you are talking about Very Slow? :)
 
Originally posted by Munchkin
You are really talking about the 1939 scenario, ver1.03, Germany/Italy vs. Soviet Union/Whoever?

Do you use any House Rules (such as No Tech Transfer)? I hope you are talking about Very Slow? :)

We have "no tech transfer" and "no SU dow on Germany unless sharing a border" as the only house rules. Speed is adjusted by demands of the player.

The key to victory as SU IMHO is to build loads of plain Inf, ca. twice the number Italy + Germany have together. This will prevent any quick territorial gains by the axis.

Once this is achieved, there are many ways to win the war. Go heavy tank, or do a ww1 style war, wearing down their manpower.

German stukas are a bit of a pain, so some fighter are needed. As SU I use bombers normally only in the far east against Japan.

Another strategy is to surprise attack Germany when it concentrates on France. But here one should be careful and don't take too much risks. Better stop at some nice defensive positions close to Berlin than risking everything in a decisive (and most likely lost) battle. Time is favouring SU.

With the current retreat bug it is most crucial to never lose a battle. I play extremely careful and only attack if I outnumber the enemy at least 3:1 (of course only if playing SU, as Germany I go into 1:1 or even 1:2 battles). Defensive positions are normally 2 provinces deep, with the option to either reinforce the front line or enable the front line units to retreat. However, if I manage a breakthrough I tend to play more risky and throw a lot of units into the gap in the hope to encircle enemy units. That has cost me dearly, but on the other hand lead to some of my most glorious victories. :)

Another nice tactic is to let German tank troops break through by doing a fake retreat early in the battle. Once the tanks advance, close the gap and destroy the tanks.

I normaly use armies of the size of 5 divs. This allows for a lot flexibilty in the deployment, but is not too fiddly if you need a strong force concentration.
 
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Originally posted by Isebrand
We have "no tech transfer" and "no SU dow on Germany unless sharing a border" as the only house rules. Speed is adjusted by demands of the player.

The key to victory as SU IMHO is to build loads of plain Inf, ca. twice the number Italy + Germany have together. This will prevent any quick territorial gains by the axis.

Once this is achieved, there are many ways to win the war. Go heavy tank, or do a ww1 style war, wearing down their manpower.
...

I normaly use armies of the size of 5 divs. This allows for a lot flexibilty in the deployment, but is not too fiddly if you need a strong force concentration.

All this sounds very interesting. Some questions, though: Your 2nd House Rule means you can Dow me immediately after conquest of Poland, right? Does this mean I have no incentive to stick to RM-agreement? You can Dow me regardless if I share Poland or keep all of it, right? This seems to work against you, no? On the other hand, I could ignore Poland, and attack France first, and you couldn´t Dow me?
 
In 1.03 there is no incentive at all for Germany to stick to RM in MP, if the USSR is playing against them. The whole pact is thus made pointless. Probably hasn't changed in 1.03b (haven't looked yet).

Looking at the changes file in 1.03b though:
- The soviet consumer goods need-reduction when at war with germany is now only valid if Germany attacks them.

Does "if Germany attacks" mean "if Germany is the one to declare war" or what?

If understood as declares war, this system now rewards Germany for not sticking to the RM pact even more. If they stick, they get +3% dissent, if they don't, they get -5% (why?). If they don't, the USSR has to make a decision: +5% dissent for backing down (they lose IC because of no Polish territory and for the dissent), +10% for declaring war *but* no consumer needs reduction (they lose again).

b.
 
Originally posted by Munchkin
All this sounds very interesting. Some questions, though: Your 2nd House Rule means you can Dow me immediately after conquest of Poland, right? Does this mean I have no incentive to stick to RM-agreement? You can Dow me regardless if I share Poland or keep all of it, right? This seems to work against you, no? On the other hand, I could ignore Poland, and attack France first, and you couldn´t Dow me?

Yes, after Germnay conquered Poland, SU can dow it. So in our games it is standard for Germany to conquer France first, before it annexes Poland. If the SU player is aggressive, he will attack Poland and is allowed to DOW Germany after annexing it.

The RM is a bit tricky - it is exploitable because of the reload-bug (if Germany doesn't honour it, it will come up on every reload again). I normally try to gain time as SU. So I point out to Germany, that if he doesn't honour the RM I will DOW him. But if he honours it, I won't DOW him at least until the next year.

But maybe it needs another house rule, e.g. that Germany has to honour the pact or DOW Russia itself. Because of the reload bug the only sensible thing SU can dow is to DOW Germany if Germany doesn't honour the pact.
 
Originally posted by boromir
In 1.03 there is no incentive at all for Germany to stick to RM in MP, if the USSR is playing against them. The whole pact is thus made pointless. Probably hasn't changed in 1.03b (haven't looked yet).

Looking at the changes file in 1.03b though:
- The soviet consumer goods need-reduction when at war with germany is now only valid if Germany attacks them.

Does "if Germany attacks" mean "if Germany is the one to declare war" or what?

I agree with your first point. As pointed out above, the only reason for Germany to honour it is that otherwise SU has to DOW it. But if Germany wants to go to war anyway, that doesn't matter.

Hm, don't have 1.03b yet. But if that is true, and the reload bug is not fixed, that one really would need a new house rule:

"Germany has to honour the RM pact."
 
Originally posted by Isebrand


The RM is a bit tricky - it is exploitable because of the reload-bug (if Germany doesn't honour it, it will come up on every reload again). I normally try to gain time as SU. So I point out to Germany, that if he doesn't honour the RM I will DOW him. But if he honours it, I won't DOW him at least until the next year.


Hmm. Strange. Never experienced this bug, playing on a LAN.

Still, I think its better for the USSR to declare war immediately (in 1.03 at least)

b.
 
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Originally posted by Isebrand
I agree with your first point. As pointed out above, the only reason for Germany to honour it is that otherwise SU has to DOW it. But if Germany wants to go to war anyway, that doesn't matter.

Hm, don't have 1.03b yet. But if that is true, and the reload bug is not fixed, that one really would need a new house rule:

"Germany has to honour the RM pact."

Looks like it, yes.

b.
 
How about a modified version of my Sitzkrieg House Rule:

*No one may use Diplomatic Options (including Declare War) before April, 1940, nor may Germany invade Britain before that date; Germany must honour MR.*

More balanced, more challenging, more historical, a little time to build for all. Everybody wins. :)
 
Originally posted by Munchkin
How about a modified version of my Sitzkrieg House Rule:

*No one may use Diplomatic Options (including Declare War) before April, 1940, nor may Germany invade Britain before that date; Germany must honour MR.*

More balanced, more challenging, more historical, a little time to build for all. Everybody wins. :)

Why not play '41 instead? ;)
 
Originally posted by Isebrand
Why not play '41 instead? ;)

:) Nah, too extreme. The idea of my house rule is to give everybody a few months for build/research. Otherwise, there is really no incentive to honour MR at all.

Note that Germany would have to go through Maginot to defeat France before April (because Belgium is taboo). I think this rule favours no one, just eliminates a little gameyness.