My first experience with DAIM

[unmerged(38273)]

I downloaded the whole pack of DAIM yesterday and played my first handoff game.

I'd say there are several things I don't like (a lot of things I like, but it's what you don't like counts, right?):

1. Japan cranking out 138 divisions in 1938. In history they had exactly 38 divisions by then;
2. They also cranked out 15 carriers by the start of Pacific War
3. Their army-level commander should all be court-martialled and executed. They attacked without caring about own flank, and often ended up being encircled by Chinese troops
4. Japan pulled off all their Kwantung Army in China theater.

And Nationalist China also crank out some 112 infantry divisions. Not historical either.

I had to say I was very disappointed with the way DAIM improve Japanese AI. Japan should be given a smaller force with better combat efficiency, not with a larger force with cumbersome performance.

Historically, Japan had only two chances to finish off China early: in early 1938 they had chance to pocket most of the best China armies in Xuzhou and
Wuhan. If they succeeded, war should be over. After that I don't think they got much serious chance after Allies and SU started to pour in supplies.

And during the whole war Japan did not pull out its Kwantung Army from Manchuria. They need to defend Manchuria, for if it was taken out by the Soviet Union, they were over.

A realistic Japan AI should be like the following:

1. A smaller landforce to invade China (about 40 divisions up to 1939)
2. Attack and force flanking Chinese force to retreat before advance, never give them chance to cut you off. In reality Japan never lost a whole division in China theater, but in my game I saw they lost at least 20 divisions
3. Make more garrisons to guard the territories taken from China. Always consolidate your holding before attacking
4. A smaller navy. 8CV + 10BB should be the upper limit.

Now I just want to know: how to uninstall this patch?

 

[Graymane]

Uninstall can be found in this thread: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188409

I would suggest that if you want a historical mod (DAIM isn't a historical mod, so I'm not sure the point of the criticism), to try one of these 3:

C.O.R.E
Total Realism
Vanilla (the game 'out-of-the-box')

The last 2 will be pretty much the same as the main guy doing the AI for Vanilla also does TR. If you read any of the DAIM threads, you will probably quickly realize that the point of DAIM is to offer a challege from the incredibly weak existing AI, that is more historically accurate and also no challenge. For me, I don't care if Japan built 38 divisions historically, I care about a fun game that doesn't take about an hour to conquer Japan.

Here is a quote stating the reason for the mod from the mod's meta-thread:

Unsatisfied with the performance of the standard HoI 2 AI, Spocky and I decided to give the AI a hand. We wanted to make the AI act more like a human would play the game - focusing on the important parts of production and research, vigorously trying to get things done, while sometimes being on the edge to "gamey" tactics. But why should Japan stop its advance in China when they've got the power to continue? Or why build the Graf Zeppelin as Germany when tanks are badly needed? The player wouldn't do so, except for fun or to make the game harder, and the AI shouldn't be told to do it either in our opinion.

 

[e-stab]

Thanks to Graymane for his response, it covers much of what I wanted to say!
In fact, our goal was not to create a more historical AI, but a more challenging one. We didn't want to loose the historical path too much while doing that, so a game with DAIM should (and usually will) stay roughly historical, but DAIM has its own dangers to get "out of hand". I'm not happy with everything in DAIM either, but there comes a point when time is right to release a new version - to show the users that progress is made and to be able to get feedback about the actual state of the mod. DAIM is not finished or closed in any sense, right now the main part is out, but adjustments - taking into account what DAIM players tell us - will be made. It's up to you to influence the way future versions will take!

I'd like to come back to what changeup said about the Japan-China war. The division numbers generally are inflated in HoI: Japan already starts with 65 divisions in 1936, so unless loosing catastrophically they will never have the numbers you mentioned. I can understand your anger about the modelling of the conflict, but China is a key issue for Japan to succeed. As Japan you either leave them alone or you conquer at least the valuable parts of it - otherwise you'll not be able to succeed in the Pacific War. This is even more true for the AI than for a human player, and most Japan players will agree, I suppose. That's why Japan is set up to be that aggressive in DAIM - and it doesn't mean that there are no tactical improvements that could be made.
Additionally we changed the China AI to be more violent as well: For human players to have a greater challenge as Japan (the standard China AI will rarely counterattack, for example), and for DAIM not to be one-sided.

There are other design issues in HoI that - unfortunately - are inflated by DAIM, like the UK and USA pre-war ability to build up the military or the UK in general: An impeccable two-layer set of research teams combined with industrial power and manpower - at least slightly overpowered in my opinion. But that is the matter of different modifications as Spocky and I are working with the AI files and switch events only.

From what I've read these last days on different occasions, maybe the current version of DAIM is more interesting for games as one of the Axis nations than with one of the others, we'll think about that. But please keep also in mind that just watching a handsoff game (or taking a peek into the DAIM files) can't replace playing by yourself, the AI often does even more weird things when left totally alone, it's like a puppy, sometimes.
We offer an AI Backup to be able to switch back to vanilla HoI 1.1 in just an instant (leaving only a few unused files), and additionally there's the possibility to use only specific AIs of DAIM (see one of the DAIM threads for details). It could be interesting to start a game as one of the Allies with the Axis DAIMed exclusively!

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I'm still on my first real test run with DAIM, playing with USA. While Japan seems to have more problems in China than in vanilla, I will not complain, unless DAIM Germany gets stuck at Warsaw too.

PS. You can guess why I decided to go for DAIM, one '36 game as Soviets and one game as USA where Germany gets stuck at Warsaw and *poof*, hours of play a total waste...

PPS. I will complain if the DAIM Germany will get stuck at Warsaw too.

 

[e-stab]

PPS. I will complain if the DAIM Germany will get stuck at Warsaw too.

I can't remember to have seen that happen with current DAIM, I hope you won't have the premiere.

 

[Kaarle XII]

While Japan seems to have more problems in China than in vanilla,

How's that possible? I'm playing my third DAIMed game, and in all of them Japan has always annexed (atleast) Nationalist China. In my current game all of China is yellow. But in my DAIM games I think that Republican Spain has won everytime, and that annoys me as I usually play Germany. I have even tried to donate resources to Franco, but that hasn't helped.

 

[Graymane]

How's that possible? I'm playing my third DAIMed game, and in all of them Japan has always annexed (atleast) Nationalist China. In my current game all of China is yellow. But in my DAIM games I think that Republican Spain has won everytime, and that annoys me as I usually play Germany. I have even tried to donate resources to Franco, but that hasn't helped.

I'm currently playing the US on my 3rd Bigpack game. China just seems to destroy Japan in the matter of about 1 year when playing with the new China AI. Are you using that or an older Bigpack (or just individual country DAIM?)? In my first 2 bigpack games, Spain went each way once, so I didn't think to report it. I wonder if the difficulty settings are mattering?

 

[unmerged(31969)]

I am playing as the US , and Japan Dow'd me in Oct 41 by this time Germany had tried to invade the UK twice and had captured a quarter of Russia. Italy was also doing well,having conquered Yugoslavia and greece though lost N Africa.

Nice to have a game with a bit of bite.

Thanks

 

[unmerged(37143)]

In mt game Austria joined the Axis in march 1936...

 

[Luxor]

I would suggest that if you want a historical mod (DAIM isn't a historical mod, so I'm not sure the point of the criticism), to try one of these 3:

C.O.R.E
Total Realism
Vanilla (the game 'out-of-the-box')

The last 2 will be pretty much the same as the main guy doing the AI for Vanilla also does TR.

I would suggest that you don't give out misinformations. TRP team is not only Lothos. There are others (including me) who are working on all aspects of the game. I can assure you that TRP will be a lot different from Vanilla.

 

[Graymane]

My apologies For some reason I thought Lothos did TR. Am I correct in assuming it is along the lines of a "historical" mod?

 

[Luxor]

My apologies For some reason I thought Lothos did TR. Am I correct in assuming it is along the lines of a "historical" mod?

Np. Lothos and I are the project leaders, but we have many helping us. Yes, the mod will try to be as realistic as possible. Historical but also with "realistic" what if possibilities.

 

[Graymane]

Np. Lothos and I are the project leaders, but we have many helping us. Yes, the mod will try to be as realistic as possible. Historical but also with "realistic" what if possibilities.

Sounds like fun, I'll try TR when it comes out

 

[Spocky]

Can you discuss this in the TRP Forum , please ?

Spocky

 

[boehm]

I'm currently playing the US on my 3rd Bigpack game. China just seems to destroy Japan in the matter of about 1 year when playing with the new China AI. Are you using that or an older Bigpack (or just individual country DAIM?)? In my first 2 bigpack games, Spain went each way once, so I didn't think to report it. I wonder if the difficulty settings are mattering?

I have been playing around a bit with the bigpack on veryhard/aggressive...and Japan has all but annexed China in this game.

 

[e-stab]

In mt game Austria joined the Axis in march 1936...

We didn't change the Austria AI, so it's not our "fault". But it shouldn't cause problems in your game anyway, the Anschluss happens also when Germany and Austria are allied.

 

[Kaarle XII]

We didn't change the Austria AI, so it's not our "fault". But it shouldn't cause problems in your game anyway, the Anschluss happens also when Germany and Austria are allied.

Hehe, I thought that my game was ruined in my last game as USSR when Austria joined the Axis in 1936 (I'd guess that the Germans would be better with an annexed Austria than an allied one), but then I checked the event file and noticed that the only things that can prevent the Anschluss are that Germany or Austria are at war with someone or that Austria is allied with the USSR/UK. What a relief...

Graymane: I'm currently using the newest bigpack, normal/agressive

 

[unmerged(4854)]

Trying out the bigpack as Germany on a modified VH/aggressive. Basically I kept all the IC/resources penalties, but reduced the combat penalities/bonuses.

Much more interesting game. The Soviets had almost 500 divisions in spring 41. I had around 180 of my own. Discounting my garrisons and including allied divisions I started Barbarossa with 210 divisions.

With those odds I have had a hell of a time encircling the Soviets, but I think they are disbanding heavily damaged divisions. So it's late Sept 41 and I have them down to about 230 divisions. I am all the way to Stalingrad with the road to Baku open in the south, but I have had problems in the north. I should be able to take the baltics and Moscow before winter, but that's it.

Italy has been interesting, they still refuse to join my alliance, but they have annexed Greece and Yugoslavia, and are now fighting the allies alone. Which is a bit easier because I took the UK home isles before Barbarossa.

I haven't paid that much attention to Japan, but I think they took most of China and are at peace now.

Good job anyway! I was looking for a more interesting East Front battle and I got it.

 

[boehm]

having had HOI2 since january but not really having played it till now due to finishing me thesis (wuhu)...I am just working on getting into the game...so I have played 3 DAIM games from 36-39 as Germany one on VH/aggressive and the last two on H/Aggressive....now I noticed some complaining about Japan getting its butt kicked...in all three of my games Japan beat up China good...and in the current one (which I will play to the finish) she has just annexed the nationalists! ...DAIM looks good sofar...I much prefer having a more competent if less historical AI to up the difficulty lvl than to play on VH making diplomacy all but impossible

 

[Graymane]

having had HOI2 since january but not really having played it till now due to finishing me thesis (wuhu)...I am just working on getting into the game...so I have played 3 DAIM games from 36-39 as Germany one on VH/aggressive and the last two on H/Aggressive....now I noticed some complaining about Japan getting its butt kicked...in all three of my games Japan beat up China good...and in the current one (which I will play to the finish) she has just annexed the nationalists! ...DAIM looks good sofar...I much prefer having a more competent if less historical AI to up the difficulty lvl than to play on VH making diplomacy all but impossible

Japan is 2-4 in my games, I'm one of the ones that posted those results The first 2 games, China isolated Japan into Korea. The last 2 games, Japan annexed China and all its puppets. My observation is like that of the original poster here and also Spockey's observation. The Japanese AI seems to be playing a lot more "risky". It will make a great sea invasion in the south while pounding the Chinese in the north at the same time. Then it seems to just send its forces willy nilly all over the place where there is great risk of being cutoff and surrounded. If the Chinese AI gets lucky, it wipes out massive amounts of Japanese.