Naming of names

[PanzerWilly]

I have finally played the alpha. It is impressive at what has been accomplished.

For my review:

I think that we should eliminate the acronyms for countries. Or they should be standardized. Why does Yugoslavia get a long name but China is just PRC. May we have USA as the United States or United States of America. Same for PRK, PRC, the German nations. USSR should be Soviet Union. And Why are some Mideast nations are Kingdoms (Jordan) and others not (Saudi Arabia). Kingdom is unnecessary.

When the revolution happens in Iran, it should go from Iran to Islamic Republic of Iran (or similar). If we are trying to be precise and that is the reason for some names then every country needs a precise name. Like Malaysia being the Federation of Malaysia. Or Pakistan being the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Every country has a proper name and a shorthand name. We seem to be mixing both. We should come to a consensus about the naming to use and stick with it.

 

[The Great Duck]

Also,SFRY should be renamed to Yugoslavia,as it was renamed to Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1992.

 

[Kretoxian]

I have finally played the alpha. It is impressive at what has been accomplished.

Glad you like it.

I think that we should eliminate the acronyms for countries. Or they should be standardized. Why does Yugoslavia get a long name but China is just PRC. May we have USA as the United States or United States of America. Same for PRK, PRC, the German nations. USSR should be Soviet Union. And Why are some Mideast nations are Kingdoms (Jordan) and others not (Saudi Arabia). Kingdom is unnecessary.

The reason of those countries having acronyms is simply and pure esthetic, because if we use the complete names, then they appear completely overimposed one over the other in the country selection screen.

The reason why i have tagged some countries as kingdoms was to differentiate them from their commie/leftist/others counterparts, and well, in some cases it's the official name of the country (for example the official name of Spain is Kingdom of Spain, same goes for Sweden... and so on.

Every country has a proper name and a shorthand name. We seem to be mixing both. We should come to a consensus about the naming to use and stick with it.

Yep, i agree, and so far we only have two options, use acronyms for every possible country or don't use them.

Also,SFRY should be renamed to Yugoslavia,as it was renamed to Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1992.

According to wikipedia and other sources that i've been handling the official name for Yugoslavia was Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia and only in 1992 it became the Federative Republic of Yugoslavia without the Socialist.

 

[unmerged(30953)]

According to wikipedia and other sources that i've been handling the official name for Yugoslavia was Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia and only in 1992 it became the Federative Republic of Yugoslavia without the Socialist.

Yes, but before 1963 the name was Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia. Then it was changed to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 

[Kretoxian]

Yes, but before 1963 the name was Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia. Then it was changed to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Well, let's see, how many years was it called FPRY, SFRY and FRY in the mod's timespan?

Let's see:

• 
  FPRY: 1963-1955 = 8 years
  SFRY: 1992-1963 = 29 years
  FRY: 1992-1995 = 3 years

Obviously the SFRY option wins because it was present much more years into the mod's timespan.

 

[The Great Duck]

Nope.Yugoslavia option wins,as it is suited for all types of governments and suits all the three names.I was suggesting to change the name to Yugoslavia,not Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 

[PanzerWilly]

The reason of those countries having acronyms is simply and pure esthetic, because if we use the complete names, then they appear completely overimposed one over the other in the country selection screen.

The reason why i have tagged some countries as kingdoms was to differentiate them from their commie/leftist/others counterparts, and well, in some cases it's the official name of the country (for example the official name of Spain is Kingdom of Spain, same goes for Sweden... and so on.

Dispense with the Kingdom of business. Kingdom of Iran should just be Iran. When the Islamic revolution happens it is not a new country just a new government, a fundamentalist government. Simple slider shifts, an ai switch, and new ministers will take care of that. If we get technical every Middle Eastern country should be a Kingdom of this or that, same with half of Europe. There is nothing gained from have to code two Irans (Kingdom and Islamic Republic) when we can code one and include ministers and an event to change the government. Replacing a country with another one is a complicated series of events. You can't just change flags ala EU2.

We are asking for grief to name every country by its proper name. Using the common names is easier, as it can describe any government of that nation. Spain is Spain to everyone in the world regardless of whatever government the country is ruled by and whatever name they contrive to be called (see Myanmar for example).

Also, North Korea is the DPRK but very few people know that (it is wrong in-game). It should just be North Korea. Everyone knows that they are commie. Makes it easier for players to know which events are affecting which countries, instead of playing the acronym game.

Hungary should just be Hungary, not Hungarian People's Republic. This way a simple event can change the government to democratic.

To sum up, I vote against acronyms. United States, Soviet Union, Communist China, these all work great, are commonly understood, and they are not too long.

 

[The Great Duck]

I disagree about North Korea.It has got its official name because it is illogical to call it North Korea if it manages to unify Korea.

 

[PanzerWilly]

I'll concede the point. What was it called in DD? People's Republic of Korea? That's fine with me. I just don't want DPRK.

I suppose you agree with my other points though. Better to have a minor irritation on the startup screen for 5 seconds than a minor annoyance in-game for hour after hour. LOL.

 

[Kretoxian]

Dispense with the Kingdom of business. Kingdom of Iran should just be Iran. When the Islamic revolution happens it is not a new country just a new government, a fundamentalist government. Simple slider shifts, an ai switch, and new ministers will take care of that. If we get technical every Middle Eastern country should be a Kingdom of this or that, same with half of Europe. There is nothing gained from have to code two Irans (Kingdom and Islamic Republic) when we can code one and include ministers and an event to change the government. Replacing a country with another one is a complicated series of events. You can't just change flags ala EU2.

We have enough tags to waste and we can make two Irans for example for the hypothetic case of a civil war in Iran (which was really possible). And changing the tags now is not advisable because it can bing a lot of inestability to it meaning that we have to change the event ID ranges and so on.

We are asking for grief to name every country by its proper name. Using the common names is easier, as it can describe any government of that nation. Spain is Spain to everyone in the world regardless of whatever government the country is ruled by and whatever name they contrive to be called (see Myanmar for example).

Ok, in some cases it can work only with the common name of the country but in other cases it can't, for example, Spain, again, how do you differentiate the first one (Franquist/Nationalist) from the second one (Democratic-Centrist-Right Winged) and from the third one (Republican, Democratic-Leftist-Commie), would name the three tags just.. "Spain" too simple isn't it?

Also, North Korea is the DPRK but very few people know that (it is wrong in-game). It should just be North Korea. Everyone knows that they are commie. Makes it easier for players to know which events are affecting which countries, instead of playing the acronym game.

I agree with The Great Duck, and add that the same happens with other countries like Vietnams and China, imagine that miracolously, the Republic of China (ROC) manages to defeat People's Republic of China (PRC) and then we see the whole China ruled by the Taiwan, a bit bizarre isn't it? :wacko:

Same for Vietnam, it's a bit ilogical to see an unified Vietnam named as North Vietnam.

Hungary should just be Hungary, not Hungarian People's Republic. This way a simple event can change the government to democratic.

The HPR (Hungarian People's Republic) was created in game to differentiate from the Hungary that Imre Nagy intended to create in the uprising of 1956 (which was, somehow a civil war in Hungary because there were Hungarian communist who opposed the uprising), and to differentiate from the democratic one. And, i repeat, we are not running low on tags, we don't need to turn into shabby solutions like changing the sliders and the ideology of the country.

To sum up, I vote against acronyms. United States, Soviet Union, Communist China, these all work great, are commonly understood, and they are not too long.

I suppose you agree with my other points though. Better to have a minor irritation on the startup screen for 5 seconds than a minor annoyance in-game for hour after hour. LOL.

Nowadays who doesn't know that USSR is Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, PRC is People's Republic of China, PRK is People's Republic of Korea, ROC is Republic of China, USA is United States of America and so on? That's why i think that acronyms should be used, because everybody knows (or should know at least) about what country the game is talking about when an events fires.

Oh and i don't vote because this is not a democracy MUHAHAHAHA

 

[PanzerWilly]

So you argue that for clarity we should have three tags for a country (Spain) that peacefully shifts from a autocratic government to a democratic one. But also, for clarity's sake, we should use acronyms.

Since we have so many tags why not one for the 4th French Republic and the 5th French Republic. We could also do one for the 1st Italian Republic and 2nd Italian Republic.

The 'Kingdom of Libya' instead of Libya. But 'Jordan' instead of Kingdom of Jordan. Or Saudi Arabia.

Sorry. I mistook this for a collaborative effort.

 

[Kretoxian]

So you argue that for clarity we should have three tags for a country (Spain) that peacefully shifts from a autocratic government to a democratic one.

Yeah, there were more than 100 dead and 1000 wounded in bombing campaigns from right wing terrorist groups, left wing terrorist group, independentist terrorist groups, by the police in demonstrations, in riots... etc but hey it was peacefully!, it could have ended in a second civil war if the army decided to act and if the left wing did not give in to the right wings proposals of keeping the king as HOS because he was appointed by Franco at this post. But hey, of course, we can only have one option!

Hey it could have even ended like Yugoslavia if Felipe Gonzalez, head of the socialist workers party decided to continue giving support to the Basque independentist (there are even famous declarations of him shouting in Basque "long live a free Basqueland!")

Hey, there are a lot of differences between the right wing, the left wing and the centrist wings in Spain, so much that even they propose a different flag.

But also, for clarity's sake, we should use acronyms.

Who said that the acronyms are there for clarity's sake?? was the cold war period a clarity one? i don't think so.

Furthermore if in this thread there are only two major posters (you and me) is because the majority of the people does not care about the acronyms because they already know what they mean.

Perhaps the only one that The Great Duck and Zokan are right is with Yugoslavia, because despite of having different names during the mod's timespan, they did not change their flag and their government type (or at least in a drastic way) so that's why perhaps, their name should be changed.

Since we have so many tags why not one for the 4th French Republic and the 5th French Republic. We could also do one for the 1st Italian Republic and 2nd Italian Republic.

Did the change from 4th to 5th rep. in France or from 1st to 2nd rep. in Italy changed the government system and their flag? of course not, and furthermore we have three tags for both of them (Republican -ITA- Commie -RSI- and monarchist -URO) Why? because the change from a government to another would mean a change in the flag, we don't have the change_flag command, so we have to mend the best as we can.

The 'Kingdom of Libya' instead of Libya. But 'Jordan' instead of Kingdom of Jordan. Or Saudi Arabia.

Kingdom of Libya is there because there is another tag for the Gadafi's Libyan republic,the reason? the same as Iran, there could have been a civil war at the end of the Kingdom.

Sorry. I mistook this for a collaborative effort.

And it is, you make things for the mod, and i include them, unless they are extremely bugged.

Does the discussion of a proposed idea break the collaborative aspect of a mod? i think no, furthermore it is very normal.

If your idea did not get enough supports is simply because the people playing this mod does not care about it. However if there were a lot of people supporting your claims of course i would change it.

EDIT: Look at the result of don't using acronyms:

 

[The Great Duck]

Well,I think Kretoxian has a point concerning Spain,since IIRC some crazy officer tried a coup to restore the Francist regime in the 80s,but it failed.