Given that it's mostly useful for having a fully sustainable late game base--not as a tech that boosts your path to sustainability--why not have it towards the end of one of the regular tech trees? I don't think it should be a dice role whether you can make a fully sustainable base
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Yes Mohole. 20 electronics per day is not enough for a larger colony. Why have the degree of long term-self sustainability possible be randomly determined by the tech tree?
Martial copyrights decrease in value over time, so it's not quite sustainable...
Martial copyrights decrease in value over time, so it's not quite sustainable...
I agree with this. When a deposit runs out with Nano you still expand to get more somewhere else so it doesn't disrupt the core gameplay loop. It also is a way to provide jobs in the late game. Not worth running an extractor working at 10% when you are poor and have fully functional extractors somewhere else. However it definitely is worth it when you are swimming in unemployed people in the late game.
you'll be surprised that even toward total map dominance with big domes, I still have rare earth metal deposits yet to be exploited, able to have plenty of electronic factories, and racking up funds up to the level that I can import 200 electronics everytime the warning of low stock emitted.
Yes, but your colony is not infinitely sustainable. That's what some of us are after. I have a couple of colonies I have worked up to 3k-10k colonists, and left when they were running smooth with huge stockpiles; however, I know that all the concrete, metal and rare metal will eventually run out and martian copyrights and patents will get so expensive eventually that my cash would dry up from imports. Will I ever hit this point? No, of course not, it might take a few thousand sols to get there. But that's not the point. What I'm after (and I assume the op as well) is a colony that doesn't rely on any non-renewable source of anything. A colony that could hypothetically go on forever in perpetuity for all time.
In other games with finite resources there are ways to still achieve this. Usually through importing raw materials and converting them into profitable trade goods. As an example, in banished you can get to a point where you can brew mass amounts of ale, and sell it in exchange for the stone, coal, etc. that would otherwise be finite. The bigger you get, the more farms breweries and trade hubs you make. In surviving mars though you are weirdly doing the opposite. You are trading away your raw materials to buy more expensive trade goods. This leads to an economy that isn't made to be sustainable, it's just supposed to hold up till 'end game.' I don't think the dev's or some of the other players on this forum really account for how much that bothers some people.
As a side note, the easy solution is to be able to export electronics, polymers and/or machine parts and import rare metals. Polymers ideally because they are made of an infinite resource so you can still make rare metals very expensive to import so that colonies need a massive amount of polymer production to maintain themselves on trade alone making it only viable in the late game. If it's machine parts and/or electronics the numbers have to be such that you can make enough of a profit importing rare metals/metals and turning them into their respective trade good to still grow a stockpile of everything without making the early game too easy.
I don't think infinite sustainability is not the point here.
Also as long as electronic factory is being maintained by electronics, you will not reach infinite sustainability anyway. One late maintenance in one electronic factory will cascade failure to all of the colony.
Also as long as electronic factory is being maintained by electronics, you will not reach infinite sustainability anyway. One late maintenance in one electronic factory will cascade failure to all of the colony.
I think for the op the infinite sustainability is the ultimate goal. The nano-refinement is just the best way to reach that goal in the game currently. But maybe I'm wrong, I'm not psychic.
Maybe there's like an advanced math concept or scenario I'm not grasping here, but as long as you're producing more electronics than you're consuming and you're acquiring more rare metals than you're using to produce electronics than I don't see how this cascading failure would happen. Unless you're really walking on the razors edge with your production maybe, but from my experience once you get going you can produce dozens and dozens more than you consume per sol. Not trying to dismiss your argument or anything, I just really can't envision this scenario where a cascading production meltdown is inevitible
I actually left a game running untouched, seeing that I have tons of rare earth metals and tons of electronic factories with tons of electronics left.
two hours later, 200+ buildings not working and all of my electronic factories were offline due to not maintained.
I did an eye roll since I know the problem: one electronic factory must be out and not maintained, and electronics thus being consumed faster than produced, thus when another electronic factory is down due to unmaintained, more downward spiral.
Even win Warhammer 40k world, The Empire of Man is dependant on Mars, and Mars is dependant on its Forge Worlds.
two hours later, 200+ buildings not working and all of my electronic factories were offline due to not maintained.
I did an eye roll since I know the problem: one electronic factory must be out and not maintained, and electronics thus being consumed faster than produced, thus when another electronic factory is down due to unmaintained, more downward spiral.
Even win Warhammer 40k world, The Empire of Man is dependant on Mars, and Mars is dependant on its Forge Worlds.
That really is a priority issue. You should be able to set independent priority for power, maintenance and workers, to ensure factories get served first.
I did put electronic factories at max priority.
Drone hubs each has 25 drones minimum.
Shuttles are everywhere.
Still those electronic factories fail.
Drone hubs each has 25 drones minimum.
Shuttles are everywhere.
Still those electronic factories fail.
But that's not an inevitability, that's just negligence. Being sustainable doesn't necessarily mean being autonomous. Not saying you're like bad at the game or anything, but if you're not watching/playing the game I would expect a small problem to spiral out of control. A game that plays itself isn't exactly compelling.
If your colony was firing on all cylinders such that you could walk away it could have also stemmed from demand for electronics via electronics stores rising with population. Or it could have been skilled workers retiring/dying and being replaced with unskilled workers. It could have been too many idiots gumming up the works. It could have been a rare metals logistics issue. Or maybe a combination all of these things or something else entirely. The point is if you weren't watching, it's just conjecture to say that it was a cascading maintenance failure.
Thus negate the requirement for always available Nano Refining if any other kind of playthrough is feasible if you're actually controlling the game.
The most autonomous game of this kind I have encountered is Tropico 5. You can actually leave that game for hours if no in-game disasters occur
The most autonomous game of this kind I have encountered is Tropico 5. You can actually leave that game for hours if no in-game disasters occur
The devs announced in the Q&A that the Mohole will be upgradeable so it can produce more, but at a price, for larger colonies. The didnt give actual details.
Ya- no reason to actually play to the point all the deposits run out, but I think there is a certain satisfaction in knowing you've reached sustainability. The whole point of the post is that given the main point of nano-refining is late-game sustainability, why not just make it a standard tech?
The double-covered Scrubbers are your solutions to infinite sustainability. Plus those wonders mentioned.
So they should just eliminate nano-refinement?
(Personally, I think letting tribolectric scrubbers scrub themselves is pretty gamey and lame. Either they just shouldn't require maintenance, or they should be immune to other tribos)
You've lost me again. The sustainability still only lasts as long as your resources hold up. Nano refinement and the mohole are currently the only way to generate rare metals once all deposits have been mined out, and the mohole can't support a large colony. Therefore without some other system nano refinement is very much needed.
I'm curious for more details on that. Maybe it will do the trick and produce enough to sustain large colonies. In my opinion though, that's kind of a lazy solution. To have one building that is all you need for sustainability is too easy. It makes the mohole either an auto-win or it's not enough and it just pushes the problem back a couple hundred more sols. Out of curiosity are they planning on adding a similar upgrade to the concrete one?
Yeah, but I wish they weren't. It just removes a part of the game for the most part. Rather than dealing with the challenge of maintenance, you just get rid of it. Except for in-dome buildings. Which is kinda the other flaw. Even with just the in dome buildings needing maintenance, a colony that can survive on 20 rare metals, 50 metals and 50 concrete per sol isn't going to be that big of a colony.
Also, I just want to reiterate that I know that as things are now colonies are sustainable until long after they become unplayable. It's not really about creating a colony you can play forever, It's about the satisfaction of getting your colony to a point where you can leave it knowing it could survive forever. At least for me it is.
The effect of Nano-refinement is not only end-game sustainbility. It's more the fact that your deposits never run out.
As soon as you get that breakthrough you start planning the 9 extractor setup on your deposits and push for triboelectic scubbers, because you know that they'll be always useful.
You don't need that much Electronics late-game.
They are used to maintain factories, Scools and Universities, but that's it.
Because you will have finished research by the time you run out of Rare Metals on the map, so no need for research buildings.
You don't even need too many education buildings, since at that point you can easily sustain on uneducated farmers, which would be the bulk of your workforce.
On the other hand having it as a standard tech would add late-game occupation to the game, which is currently non-existent for a big colony anyways.
But overall I don't think it's unreasonable to have it as a Breakthrough.
Besides the actual argument I'm also curious: but why tho?
What are you even doing after you're done with evaluation, solved the Mystery, finished researching and mined all Rare Metals?
At that point the game is so far out of the intended game experience that you can just use mods to achieve sustainability.
As soon as you get that breakthrough you start planning the 9 extractor setup on your deposits and push for triboelectic scubbers, because you know that they'll be always useful.
You don't need that much Electronics late-game.
They are used to maintain factories, Scools and Universities, but that's it.
Because you will have finished research by the time you run out of Rare Metals on the map, so no need for research buildings.
You don't even need too many education buildings, since at that point you can easily sustain on uneducated farmers, which would be the bulk of your workforce.
On the other hand having it as a standard tech would add late-game occupation to the game, which is currently non-existent for a big colony anyways.
But overall I don't think it's unreasonable to have it as a Breakthrough.
Besides the actual argument I'm also curious: but why tho?
What are you even doing after you're done with evaluation, solved the Mystery, finished researching and mined all Rare Metals?
At that point the game is so far out of the intended game experience that you can just use mods to achieve sustainability.
We can argue about whether or not we think that other people need something.
I'd say it's foolhardy. If there's a desire for something, they can voice it. If the devs agree, they can implement it.
I too would like to have a maximum amount of late-game resources. I want to build the biggest, millenium old colony that I can and fill out the entire map. That is my end-game goal.
That might not be your end-game goal, but it is mine and no amount of arguing can dissuade me from thinking that's my idea of fun. Therefore, I'd like a bigger mohole and for nano-refinement to be a standard. After 1000 years, any deposit will run dry without it.
As an aside, I also think players should have slightly more say in which breakthroughs are available for each game. After some 10, I still haven't been able to experience certain breakthroughs. If I wanted to make an eternal colony because that's my idea of fun, knowing that a savegame holds nano-ref or the ability to unlock it, would be very useful.
I'd say it's foolhardy. If there's a desire for something, they can voice it. If the devs agree, they can implement it.
I too would like to have a maximum amount of late-game resources. I want to build the biggest, millenium old colony that I can and fill out the entire map. That is my end-game goal.
That might not be your end-game goal, but it is mine and no amount of arguing can dissuade me from thinking that's my idea of fun. Therefore, I'd like a bigger mohole and for nano-refinement to be a standard. After 1000 years, any deposit will run dry without it.
As an aside, I also think players should have slightly more say in which breakthroughs are available for each game. After some 10, I still haven't been able to experience certain breakthroughs. If I wanted to make an eternal colony because that's my idea of fun, knowing that a savegame holds nano-ref or the ability to unlock it, would be very useful.