I'm noit sure if this is covered anywhere; but isn't the naval attrit too high? I sent Columbus to the new world with 12 ships got to Hatteras (should have gotten 50 VP's I would have thought) and they all died before they could get back. Didn't Columbus make several trips with fewer ships?
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This has been discussed at length over on the General Discussion board. To summarize, there are two camps on this issue. Many feel that naval attrition is too high as evidenced by examples like yours. Others, myself included, believe that attrition is just fine because it encourages not only the use of ships, but the building of ports, and thus is more appropriate to a game that is strategic in scope. Lots of punches; no clear winner. 
High level of naval attrition may also be a way to compensate for the fact that unlike historical exploreres you know very well where to go to discover America or how far it is to reach India going around the Cape of Good Hope.
This has been bothering me a bit lately as well.
Magellan can sail around the world with 5 ships (admitedly, only 1 made it back to Spain), but I need a fleet of 20 just to make it to South America and back?
Magellan can sail around the world with 5 ships (admitedly, only 1 made it back to Spain), but I need a fleet of 20 just to make it to South America and back?
I think that in a large fleet you will see negative effects of attrition sooner than in a small fleet. It works in a way in which number of ships in your fleet decreases by a certain percent as a result of attrition. So if you get a 5% hit due to attrition for a 20 ship fleet it means 1 ship (which you loose) but for a 5 ship fleet it is only 1/4 of a ship so you loose nothing (at least for now).
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Isn't it that way that you have 25% random chance of loosing ship if your attrition is taking 1/4 ship per month?
Or you loose first ship after 4 month?
I think the later is true. If you look into your save file at the data about your fleet you will see info that it has 4.75 ships which means that in the game it still has 5.
Tried that; Columbus died and never made it back to port. And while I know exactly where to look for the New World and Columbus didn't (historically) then if anything my naval attrition rate should be lower than what they experienced historically -- not 10-20 times higher.
Well, if u managed to let Columbus die ur doing a shyte job at managing ur fleet Especially if u had more than one ship. If u have sent him off with more than 1 ship and his fleet is reduced to 1 ship don't u think it's about time u go dock in a port ?? U don't have to discover America the first haul, u know. Attrition can be handled just fine if u make ur work of it.
Especially if u had more than one ship. If u have sent him off with more than 1 ship and his fleet is reduced to 1 ship don't u think it's about time u go dock in a port ?? U don't have to discover America the first haul, u know. Attrition can be handled just fine if u make ur work of it.
Originally posted by BiB
Well, if u managed to let Columbus die ur doing a shyte job at managing ur fleet
Could you perhaps elaborate on that? Telling someone they're doing a 'shyte job of it' without presenting a useful alternative doesn't aid yr argument.
Columbus made it to the Antilles with 3 ships (after much sailing in circles), and then made it back to Spain with one (leaving the other two behind, but very much functional). This historical example (something that seems to be much carped on around here) defeats just about anything you care to say --- especially the 'well if yr down to one ship, you better go dock in a port' bit. Duh! Unfortunately, by the time you reach Puerto Rico yr usually down to one ship! Where exactly are you supposed to dock at? Thanks to the inflated attrition rate, you'll never make it back to Spain! And, as I already pointed out, Magellan made it around the world with 5 --- a feat you'll never reproduce in EU!
How's this for an alternative? Maybe Naval Explorers should be made into their own type of unit: One that is unsinkable due to attrition, but still succeptable to storms, pirates, warships, etc. That way you'd still want to put them with a fleet for protection --- and the Movement bonus.
I'd have to agree with David, exploring is nearly impossible. As Denmark I tried sending one of my explorers to India - I knew the route since I had stolen some maps. The first time I sent him off with 25 ships, but he didn't even make it to India, just died somewhere around Madagascar. I figured this couldn't be right so I loaded the game again, and this time he got to India, then died before exploring any of the Terra Incognita. I then tried it with just a handful of ships but the outcome was the same. You might argue that since I know what to look for, attrition should be higher to make it a bit more difficult but as it is now I havn't a chance to get to Asia unless I equip someone with 50+ ships and that hardly seems realistic. Especially since conquistadors suffer almost no attrition. I had one walk all over North America and lose less than 4,000 men in attrition and battle combined.
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I thought it was pretty common sense and sommink I alreday explained. It's a game, not reall ife, u cannot sail around the world in one haul with Mahelhaes, so don't try it! Trying it and sinking after I toild u not to, ..., well
If ur halfway Europe-America and u just lost ur second to last ship, maybe u should go back to a harbour, like, maybe, I dunno, Spain ?!
Can't say I ever played Spain, but played England a lot and the distances u have to cover then are considerably bigger, like discovering Australia thru the pacific. It can be done with a little effort and dedication. It's not like it was easy back then either. And they refreshed quite a bit too, they didn't stay at water all the time.
LEt's take Cabot. U get him in London, u sail to Ulster or so for a first harbour visit and then sail as far as possible as attrition allows to get back with ur 2 ships. Check out attrition rates, just leaving them out of sea cuz u want it that way isn't gonna work. Normally u'll make the American coast easily the first time and with soem luck some territory. Then if possible colonize that for a harbour. Keep sailing on and off to England till u get that colonial harbour.
Xure, it isn't very realistic but IMO it beats the crap out of knowing the whoel world by 1525, sommink that is quite likely if there would not be attrition for explorers.
I also played Portugal who has to explore loads at the start and that is very easy to manage as long as u pay some attention.
If u want to get to India, get harbours on the way to dock in.
Another thing is that 25 ships will suffer much more attrition than 2 ships. Explorers needn't more than 3 ships, really.
And to think Columbus gets enormous attrition bonuses ...
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Originally posted by BiB
Well, if u managed to let Columbus die ur doing a shyte job at managing ur fleet
He was down to two ships when I sent him bak to port; so, no, I don't think I did a 'shyte' job of managing the fleet. Did I talk to you or anyone else like that?
How is one to discover America if you can't make it over _and_ back? Which port can I dock at on the way? I tried to set it to stop at the Azores (?); but, apparently they didn't. And did they do that historically?
If you let him die due to attrition then you did a shyte job
Don't get so worked up because of a simple word, not to mention a word that accurately describes the situation at hand.You can quite easily make it over and back again if u manage it well, take in account attrition, build strategically located harbours and so on. The Azores presumably are Portuguese so you can't dock there.
It's a game, not history.
Plenty of people seem to be able to handle it. Without Columbus even.
I'll try again.
Set of with Columbus, take some 2, 3 ships. Sail towards America (quite handy if you alreday know where it is situated), discover a TI sea zone, discover another one. By then most likely attrition will have started to kick in. Return to Spain. Refresh in a harbour, go back and discover another 2 sea zones. And so on till u get to America. I wouldn't know how far it is as I never played Spain but with England and Portugal I get there in one haul. So let's say you need 2 hauls for Spain. When you see land most likely you will discover some islands. Build a colony there. While building that colony, return to Spain, most likely the colony will be set up by the time you return. From then on you can start exploring the rest of the coast from that island.
Naval attrition as it is prevents the player from exploring virtually the whole world early in the game and rightly so. And with some management it can all go very well.
Can't be too hard now, can it?
I think with Columbus I did it in two (could have been three) trips to make it to Florida uncovering 2 or even 3 areas each time and not losing a ship - he's got that maneuver of 6! England is closer so there are fewer areas for their explorers to uncover. Spanish colonising percentage is so high and they get so much money that it doesn't make much sense for them to build trading posts at all - just go straight to colonies.
They even get hardcoded bonuses for colonies there. And 6 manouver is -24 attrition wise for an explorer.
Originally posted by BiB If you let him die due to attrition then you did a shyte job
Well, potty-mouth, I sent him back when he was down to 2 ships; it's not my fault that the naval attrition rate is too high. What was I supposed to do; let him rot in port where he'd be safe?
Nice advice that is woefully short on specifics. What I have done is cheated and didn't try to duplicate history (one way of seeing if the game is accurate or not -- in this case, definitely not). What I did was take Columbus out and have him run down to the Canary Islands; after he got there then I sent him straight across and when I found the New World I let him run a round a wee bit (very unhistorical here) and when he was down to 2 ship run him straight back -- then when I had his 'fleet' built back up to 3 ships I sent his straight across, let him explore a wee bit more and then runs straight back to the Canary Islands again. I figure it will take me about 5 trips to do what Columbus did in 2.
Correct; I never said it was. But if it claims to be a game about history and it doesn't capture it very well then we might as well play chess instead. It's like a board game some friends were playing that had an attrition rate for moving ground troops; which sounds nice until you find out that they duplicated a historical march and ended up with no troops with which to fight the major batle that took place historically! Or, the Civ game where my chariot beat up 2 dozen tank units -- of course, I didn't complain as loudly about that one!
Again woefully short on specifics; are you a political or corporate spin-doctor or something? Maybe in advertising? Sell used cars? ('A little ol' lady drove this to church every week.' Very carefully neglecting to mention that she did the 100 mile trip in 45 minutes ...)
See above; but start with 3 ships (and return when down to 2) and make his 'home base' the Canary Islands. With my emphasis added to your post that says it all.
I don't think naval attrition is too high considering what the game is trying to model - i.e., strategic-level naval power. If you could sail around the world with every explorer, there would be no incentive to build ports and an important strategic aspect of naval power would be lost. The game models sea power as a strategic element, which requires the use of ships together with ports, rather than individual naval exploits.
You can still explore. You just have to do it more slowly and build ports as you go. This also helps slow the discovery and colonization process to a more realistic rate.
As for specifics, just send an explorer with 3 or 4 ships. Make a pass or two down a coastline until you uncover a territory or two. Stay close to shore so you can take advantage of the lower attrition in coastal provinces. Once you uncover two or three provinces, go home. Pick one that looks most promising for a port colony, send a colonist and cross your fingers.
If you're a gambler and find a good site right away, you can try colonizing while your explorer keeps exploring. If the colony fails, though, your guy will be stranded. (I've lost a more than a few that way.)
One thing that helps is to send a 'relief fleet' of 5 or 6 ships to link up with the explorer. If they can reach him before he craters, he will take command of the relief fleet and have a lower attrition.
Finally, another interesting suggestion I read elsewhere is to ally with someone like Spain or Portugal that has a lot of ports. Then, at least in wartime, you can use their ports to refit.
All of this is more complicated than just sailing one explorer around the world, but that's what adds to the strategy.
You can still explore. You just have to do it more slowly and build ports as you go. This also helps slow the discovery and colonization process to a more realistic rate.
As for specifics, just send an explorer with 3 or 4 ships. Make a pass or two down a coastline until you uncover a territory or two. Stay close to shore so you can take advantage of the lower attrition in coastal provinces. Once you uncover two or three provinces, go home. Pick one that looks most promising for a port colony, send a colonist and cross your fingers.
If you're a gambler and find a good site right away, you can try colonizing while your explorer keeps exploring. If the colony fails, though, your guy will be stranded. (I've lost a more than a few that way.)
One thing that helps is to send a 'relief fleet' of 5 or 6 ships to link up with the explorer. If they can reach him before he craters, he will take command of the relief fleet and have a lower attrition.
Finally, another interesting suggestion I read elsewhere is to ally with someone like Spain or Portugal that has a lot of ports. Then, at least in wartime, you can use their ports to refit.
All of this is more complicated than just sailing one explorer around the world, but that's what adds to the strategy.
Originally posted by David Conklin
Well, potty-mouth, I sent him back when he was down to 2 ships; it's not my fault that the naval attrition rate is too high. What was I supposed to do; let him rot in port where he'd be safe?
So, basically, u returned him too late
If I have a fleet with 3 ships go down to 2 in the pacific and then head back for Spain, I also won't make it, duh. I thought it was common sense that the distance that has to be covered back shouldn't be too big
The rate isn't too high as plenty of players can handle it juuust fine. U seem to think it's to high cuz u can't keep Columbus from dying
Nice advice that is woefully short on specifics. What I have done is cheated and didn't try to duplicate history (one way of seeing if the game is accurate or not -- in this case, definitely not). What I did was take Columbus out and have him run down to the Canary Islands; after he got there then I sent him straight across and when I found the New World I let him run a round a wee bit (very unhistorical here) and when he was down to 2 ship run him straight back -- then when I had his 'fleet' built back up to 3 ships I sent his straight across, let him explore a wee bit more and then runs straight back to the Canary Islands again. I figure it will take me about 5 trips to do what Columbus did in 2.
I went into specifics later in that posts.
Correct; I never said it was. But if it claims to be a game about history and it doesn't capture it very well then we might as well play chess instead. It's like a board game some friends were playing that had an attrition rate for moving ground troops; which sounds nice until you find out that they duplicated a historical march and ended up with no troops with which to fight the major batle that took place historically! Or, the Civ game where my chariot beat up 2 dozen tank units -- of course, I didn't complain as loudly about that one!
U would prefer Columbus sailing around the world in 1498 then and having half the world colonised by 1515 ?!
Again woefully short on specifics; are you a political or corporate spin-doctor or something? Maybe in advertising? Sell used cars? ('A little ol' lady drove this to church every week.' Very carefully neglecting to mention that she did the 100 mile trip in 45 minutes ...)
I found it most understanding. U basically replied by saying the same with Spain substituted with the Canaries.
I actually thought I'd sound condescending and insulting to ur intelligence as I figured I explained it like u were a little kid, low on intelligence. Xurely u don't want me to lead u by the hand ?
See above; but start with 3 ships (and return when down to 2) and make his 'home base' the Canary Islands. With my emphasis added to your post that says it all.