New Order America?

[unmerged(36311)]

i actually got into proposing this before hoi2 was out..but, what about it?

an invasion of america is generally the culmination of every smashing axis victory, and it would compel many people (definetely myself, at times) to keep fighting after new order east, after which the game just seems monotonous. the bitter peace events were VERY fun, and i only wished there were more of them.

The bitter peace would redraw the map of the americas...

A possibility of just a puppet regime USA?

the chance to annex it all with outrageous partisan levels, raised by events and perhaps a drain on manpower through events also?

A chance to merely peace USA, but giving yourself dissent and making the USA rabidly arm itself?

The option to create the confederacy as a puppet, with the USA also puppeted? (this is truthfully the option i am most interested in..however thats just my southern bias)

breaking up of the USA into the west, the confederacy and the north?

if canada did not sign bitter peace west, a review of its continued existance? maybe puppet quebec?

 

[Guinnessmonkey]

The option to create the confederacy as a puppet, with the USA also puppeted? (this is truthfully the option i am most interested in..however thats just my southern bias)

breaking up of the USA into the west, the confederacy and the north?

if canada did not sign bitter peace west, a review of its continued existance? maybe puppet quebec?

Why do you think we included tags for CSA, California, Texas, and Quebec?

 

[JRaup]

Why do you think we included tags for CSA, California, Texas, and Quebec?

To shut up certain Beta Testers?

A New Order America is certainly in the works. Much like NOE, it wil be situationally dependent. Who controls what, who's allied to whom, that sort of thing. Example would be if Germany and Japan are allied or not, and if either/both are at war with the USA, if the UK is still in the fight or not...you get the idea.

 

[unmerged(36870)]

To shut up certain Beta Testers?

A New Order America is certainly in the works. Much like NOE, it wil be situationally dependent. Who controls what, who's allied to whom, that sort of thing. Example would be if Germany and Japan are allied or not, and if either/both are at war with the USA, if the UK is still in the fight or not...you get the idea.

I just wanted to tell you, as a red-blooded american, that every single American with access to a rifle would promptly join the Partisans if an German pyschopathic dictator, His Italian side-kick lackey, and the Japanese yellow devils tried to impose a "new order " on us..
I inow, I know,this is "alternative history"...still, Yamamoto got it right,as usual..any nation that tried to occupy the US would soon realize that there was a rifle behind every blade of grass...

 

[JRaup]

I just wanted to tell you, as a red-blooded american, that every single American with access to a rifle would promptly join the Partisans if an German pyschopathic dictator, His Italian side-kick lackey, and the Japanese yellow devils tried to impose a "new order " on us..
I inow, I know,this is "alternative history"...still, Yamamoto got it right,as usual..any nation that tried to occupy the US would soon realize that there was a rifle behind every blade of grass...

Well, yes and no. Certainly the vast majority of Americans would at least support continued resistance to any occupying power. But I think there would be enough collaborators to ease some of the burden. You would probably see a strong resurrection of the German-American Bund, collaboration from anti-British groups, maybe some among the Italian Americans and Russian exiles. As a direct occupation and rule wasn't envisioned, you got to figure that there would be a good deal of Southern sympathy, as they would most likely get an independent state (CSA in game). The strongest resistance would be in the Northeast and Midwest. Probably be more like a civil war in California and the plains states.

 

[unmerged(36870)]

Well, yes and no. Certainly the vast majority of Americans would at least support continued resistance to any occupying power. But I think there would be enough collaborators to ease some of the burden. You would probably see a strong resurrection of the German-American Bund, collaboration from anti-British groups, maybe some among the Italian Americans and Russian exiles. As a direct occupation and rule wasn't envisioned, you got to figure that there would be a good deal of Southern sympathy, as they would most likely get an independent state (CSA in game). The strongest resistance would be in the Northeast and Midwest. Probably be more like a civil war in California and the plains states.

You raise some interesting points..it might be possible to set up puppet states in America,especially in the South. I was born and raised in Michigan.17 years ago, I moved to Virginia. The cultural contrast was, to put it mildly,startling. In the town where I live,Charlottesville, there is a Robert E. Lee Park, AND a Stonewall Jackson Park..both complete with equestrian statues..
My point is tha tthere has always been a strong streak of regionalism in theSouth. back in the late eighties, there was a song by Hank Williams Jr, calle d:"If the South would have won we would a had it made"..and it was only partially tongue incheek..It was an enormous hit downhere. Old times here are NOT forgotten.

 

[KingMississippi]

Acually the easiest place to puppet would have been the north-east and the more populous areas. The major reason for releasing a reborn CSA would have been the ability to establish a like minded government that would ally itself with Germany and Italy ... and the South has for years been the most independent and most reactionary section of the nation. The north-east is more liberal and accepting of change so they would have accepted the new government with more ease than the Southern states which have always been about less government and personal freedoms and especially STATES RIGHTS!

 

[JRaup]

Acually the easiest place to puppet would have been the north-east and the more populous areas. The major reason for releasing a reborn CSA would have been the ability to establish a like minded government that would ally itself with Germany and Italy ... and the South has for years been the most independent and most reactionary section of the nation. The north-east is more liberal and accepting of change so they would have accepted the new government with more ease than the Southern states which have always been about less government and personal freedoms and especially STATES RIGHTS!

Actually, the easiet place for Germany to occupy would be the Mississippi valley. Especially the corridor from St.Louis to Chicago. This was the heart of the German-American Bund in the 30's. The Northeast could be problematic, as the Mafia wouldn't have liked the new regime (and they thought Fiorello Laguardia was bad!), nor would the political establishments of the various states. I can't see Thomas Dewey giving up his throne in Albany for anyone...and depending on how Germany dealt with Ireland, NYC, Boston, and Philadelphia could become very hostile places for Germans to be.

 

[unmerged(36870)]

Actually, the easiet place for Germany to occupy would be the Mississippi valley. Especially the corridor from St.Louis to Chicago. This was the heart of the German-American Bund in the 30's. The Northeast could be problematic, as the Mafia wouldn't have liked the new regime (and they thought Fiorello Laguardia was bad!), nor would the political establishments of the various states. I can't see Thomas Dewey giving up his throne in Albany for anyone...and depending on how Germany dealt with Ireland, NYC, Boston, and Philadelphia could become very hostile places for Germans to be.

Excellent points. Dewey AND LaGuardia were both far, far too egotistical to cave in to ANYBODY..Both men, incidentally would have made very efficient, if quasi-fascist, Presidents.
The Mafia HATED Mussolini..they were Sicilians..and Mussolini was Milanese. He also went after the Sicilian mafia..with mixed sucess.
The deep South would have had mixed feelings about a fascist takeover.On the one hand, these were all dad-gum furriners...appalachia, especially was crawling with would be sergeant Yorks who would have LOVED to take a pot-shot at some "kraut", "jap"or "Itay".On the other hand, the south had it share of Nazi sympathizers like the odious Gerald L.K Smith (not to mention the Klan..which was in temporary eclipse inthe thirties, but which the Nazis might ahve revived.)
SPI and other board gamers designed alternative history games in which the US was conquered...in one, Patton organized flying columns of light motorcycle/cavalry guerillas who carried out lightning strikes against the invaders,a nd then withdrew into their strongholds in the appalachians and the ozarks.
However, the Japanese and the Germans struck back with surprises of their own..the Japanese, in the conquered western US, recruited Americann indian tribesmen, turning them into cavalry formations.( hey they did it with inner mongolia). The Nazis had their own "Knightrider KKK waffen SS"( I kid you not)

 

[JRaup]

Excellent points. Dewey AND LaGuardia were both far, far too egotistical to cave in to ANYBODY..Both men, incidentally would have made very efficient, if quasi-fascist, Presidents.
The Mafia HATED Mussolini..they were Sicilians..and Mussolini was Milanese. He also went after the Sicilian mafia..with mixed sucess.
The deep South would have had mixed feelings about a fascist takeover.On the one hand, these were all dad-gum furriners...appalachia, especially was crawling with would be sergeant Yorks who would have LOVED to take a pot-shot at some "kraut", "jap"or "Itay".On the other hand, the south had it share of Nazi sympathizers like the odious Gerald L.K Smith (not to mention the Klan..which was in temporary eclipse inthe thirties, but which the Nazis might ahve revived.)
SPI and other board gamers designed alternative history games in which the US was conquered...in one, Patton organized flying columns of light motorcycle/cavalry guerillas who carried out lightning strikes against the invaders,a nd then withdrew into their strongholds in the appalachians and the ozarks.
However, the Japanese and the Germans struck back with surprises of their own..the Japanese, in the conquered western US, recruited Americann indian tribesmen, turning them into cavalry formations.( hey they did it with inner mongolia). The Nazis had their own "Knightrider KKK waffen SS"( I kid you not)

I remember some of those games. I think a few came in S&T way back when...

The Native American aspect is interesting to consider. Though I doubt that either Germany or Japan would have found the tribes to be fertile recruiting grounds. OFC, when SPI made those games, it was the hey-day of AIM, so probably had some quasi-political over tones to them. The Klan could be a factor in the South. Though on the wane in the late 30's, they still wielded a good ammount of influence. Certainly their philosophy and that of Naziism are very similar in nature, and would IMO make "natural" allies.

Appalachia is well, Appalachia. I think that they would split, more or less, with some being of a mind where "Don't bother us, we won't bother you." But there'd probably be enough York types to cause more than a bit of trouble.

I had forgotten about the Sicilian-Milanese thing entirely. Doh. I should have remembered, as the Mafia in NYC was "co-opted" into supporting the war effort, providing "security" and intelligence in NYC, and in Sicily, which was used in Husky.

 

[unmerged(36870)]

New order america.

One independent gaming company had a couple of games in the late eighties/early nineties,about a German/Japanese struggle for world domination in 47/48. Being on a grad students budget,I didnt actually buy any of them,but I read the descriptions.
First there were three games devoted to key battles of the war. In "Missisippi Banzai", Japanese forces in Missouri try to capture Saint Louis from german forces led by Manteuffel and Dietrich. In "Black Gold" ..the Japanese, and their Indian National army and Burmese National Army allies, attack the middle east oilfields. In Tiger of Ethiopia,Yamashita, staging from kenya or Madagascar, I iforget which,tries to drive the Italians, led by Graziani from Ethiopia( of course, Tojo and company assign their best general to a secondary campaign).
Finally, there was grand campaign game called "tommorrow the world",In which the germans and the japanese fight it out for world amastery..complete with Japanese Shinano class super carriers, German improved Tigers,etc. etc.
The underlying historical premise is that Churchill get s killed in action in the sudan,leaving England under incompetent leadership and Roosevelt gets shot
in 1933(as almost happened. This in turn leads to a victory in 36 by the populist leftledby Long,etc.,etc..
I only include these decriptions for those Hearts of Iron enthusiasts interested in devising "alternative history "scenarios.

 

[unmerged(20027)]

The underlying historical premise is that Churchill get s killed in action in the sudan,leaving England under incompetent leadership and Roosevelt gets shot in 1933(as almost happened. This in turn leads to a victory in 36 by the populist leftledby Long,etc.,etc..
I only include these decriptions for those Hearts of Iron enthusiasts interested in devising "alternative history "scenarios.

Perhaps including some events that simulate these events, giving a small chance of firing, especially for the assasination of Roosevelt.

In response to the partitioning of US: it is extremely probable that the south(or portions thereof) would have made an excelent fascist puppet. The North would likely try to join Canada, if not already conquered. The midwest (I grew up in Nebraska) would have taken up arms quite quickly. The west should of course be divided into smaller country states, like Deseret and california, and Texas. Someone made a good point about the appalachia area, maybe we could make it a seperate partisan-like state (high manpower - low tech). Overall, I think a mix of puppets, and partisan states would be the best way to partition the U.S.

 

[Malch]

As far as Canada goes a Quebec fascist puppet seems the way to go, possibly under Maurice Duplessis. The rest of Canada is tricky. Newfoundland (still a British Colony at this time) would probably be either under a puppet Britain or annexed directly to Germany as a colony. Germany may also want to annex the remaining maritime provinces as a colony to give Germany the port of Halifax in North America. It might not be a bad idea to give the Japanese British Columbia (and Alaska for that matter) as colonies in North America. The Northwest territories should remain wither Canadian or German colonies. The praries could join with the American Midwest (Alberta at least) or remain with Ontario or some kind of a combination. Ontario at the very least would remain as "Canada" and should not be joined with the USA.

There should be a few options for Canada
1.) Annex outright
2.) Puppet Canada (all Canadian provinces except Quebec) and Puppet Quebec
3.) Partition with Japan (Japan Gains BC, Germany Gains Maritimes, Rump Canada Puppet and Quebec Puppet
4.) Partition with Japan and US (Japan gains BC, Germany gains Maritimes and NWT, USA Gains Praries and Puppet Quebec and Puppet Ontario, called Canada)

These are just a few ideas to make the New Order West events a little more flavourful.

 

[Captain Frakas]

We could have similar setup like in "The man in the Hight Castle".

 

[JRaup]

We could have similar setup like in "The man in the Hight Castle".

One of my favorite Phillip K Dick stories.


But I kinda doubt it will ever be that "clean" a division. As I said above, there will probably be several variations of the events, each dependent upon the actual in game situation.

 

[unmerged(16904)]

What does this have to do with CORE?

Lets move this to OT.

Interesting, just got out-of-place...

 

[JRaup]

What does this have to do with CORE?

Lets move this to OT.

Interesting, just got out-of-place...

Discussion about how to model the what if of an occupation of NorAm is pertinent to CORE. These ideas are being discussed with the idea and intent of incorporating them inot CORE as part of the NOW event series. So no, it's not OT.

 

[Delthalazon]

How about Japan only gets North American territory/influence if it actually physically invades NA.. but if it does, it should definately get land.

 

[Diomedes]

Too bad I didn’t see this thread before. In my last game as Germany, I had to manually add new American puppets to achieve precisely what some of you are talking about. Even with the puppet options of California, Texas, and CSA (you can’t have both by default, unfortunately), the remaining US territory is still simply too big. Here’s how I broke it apart:



Added two new states: Middle America & New England. I also modified the minimum territories needed to create the CSA so that I could also add Texas.

New England:




Middle America (Mittelamerika)

 

[unmerged(38925)]

America would never have been annexed by either Japan or Germany. They had no intent at all to do so. It would be purely a puppeting which was always the intent by all Axis powers. Alaska and Hawaii would have gone to Japan, but those were American colonies at the time, and that would be all.

Frankly from what I can see in history it would have been a clean puppeting. The US would have stayed intact, but under new management. The thing is though that the new US would have a great deal of partisan activity. Enough that you would see a good chance of revolt. The thing is that once you invaded the US it wouldn't fight to the death but reach a Vichy France style defeat that would be fully intact, but would be terribly unstable. It wouldn't collapse but we're looking at a VERY, VERY high chance of a revolution. We're talking about a puppet state with 30-40% dissent.