No tribals?

[blackninja9939]

There will never be tribal governments because they if the willdings or anyone else conquers a non tribal realm they would not be able to get any tax or men from the castle which just makes no sense. Qarth is ruled by the Pureborns not the Warlocks themselves

 

[blackninja9939]

It's possible to convert a successful King Beyond the Wall to feudalism by event without changing any of their holdings behind the Wall to feudalism. Your existing feudalism > republic decision for characters like Aegon I is a good example of this being done. The other option is to allow the wildlings to convert feudal holdings into tribal holdings over time via a combination of cultural change and neglect.

I know it is possible to change their government but it still makes no sense to go through all of that when you can just as easily not have them be tribal, it really adds nothing to the game in the slightest compared to the annoyance it would bring

 

[blackninja9939]

To be honest "all of that" is just a single event, offset by the fact that it'd correctly remove feudal obligations from the non-kneeling Wildlings and allow them to ignore their liege's calls to war instead. There's also the cosmetic impact of having better looking buildings on the map and icons for their holdings, and the council actions that you can associate with tribal rule. It just seems like a shame to keep them feudal when tribes are a perfect fit for them.

Having them as tribal then conquering south of the wall then making them feudal is pointless, just keep them feudal. The idea of changing the holding type is equally bad, the willdings would not go south of the wall and then just destroy a giant castle to build some dodgy little huts. It makes no sense

 

[blackninja9939]

I'm not saying they'd erect huts in King's Landing, I'm suggesting that neglect by the Wildings of holdings they don't know how to maintain would see them fall apart and become a badly organised slum. That could be a progressive wave of decay moving south over time, but honesty the idea of them going feudal on arrival is better.

To be honest, arguing that having them tribal is pointless is the same as arguing that tribal government in vanilla is pointless too, given that the Wildlings represent a perfect example of tribal politics. Vanilla cultures can launch an invasion of a foreign feudal title and get upgraded to feudalism, so what's the issue? You're inventing a problem that doesn't exist.

Sure it could be a slum, that would not make it suddenly not have able to have tax taken from it or men made to fight. Having them go feudal once they go south of the wall is really not any better than just having them feudal,
An honestly I feel tribal in vanilla is slightly pointless in a few cases, not to the same extent of the willdings as I only really dislike the tribal ones in vanilla during the cases where you play as a nomad and can go to tribal which seems like a superfluous mid point as you can also choose to go feudal.
As much as you can keep arguing this point it is not going to make a difference as it will not be changed I am afraid

 

[blackninja9939]

It is not just down to my personal preference in the slightest, it is the same answer the entire dev team gives to everyone when they ask about tribals.
If the rest of the team concludes to change this in the future I am all for it, I really do not mind to that extent either way but you seemt to for somre reason to the point where you seem to be starting to actually get annoyed with me personally as apprently I have slighted you by just saying we are not changing something at the moment.

 

[blackninja9939]

I was annoyed in the sense that I thought you were actually slightly rude in your response to @Achiles and I, especially since you were posting misleading information at the same time. If other members of the team want to read what I said and mull over a response, that'd be great. It's really easy to get an echo chamber going in a closed modding group where particular ideas or conceptions like "we can't have tribals ingame" go completely unchallenged.

I was not intending to be rude, all I did was say the same information any other member of the team would tell you, the rest of the dev team do also check the forums out but just respond less to people than I do.

EDIT: Actuslly saying that I just realised that I'm a mong and had totally forgotten you can change in a government what holdings they can hold without penalty.... I'm gonna go test this out now lol and see if it is alright and works nicely...

 

[blackninja9939]

The Warhammer mod has multiple different and unique government types. I see no reason why special government types couldn't be created for this mod to address the issues being raised while also adding to the realism. The clunky unrealistic system for pre-nomad Dothraki was one of the primary reasons I barely ever played this mod before. If vanilla feudal is going to remain the government type of the freefolk, skagosi, and others, then I will probably just play something else. The suspension of disbelief is already broken.

Well if you read my post above I just said I am gonna take a look as I had forgot government types could have allowed holdings edited. If you really cannot stand a few titles being feudal until then when it really has no major gameplay impact and want to completely stop playing the mod I can't stop you but that seems like a cut your nose off to spite your face style reaction

 

[blackninja9939]

To me, it isn't a minor thing. It is a major inaccuracy that diminishes my ability to fully enjoy the mod. I'm not "cutting off my nose to spite my face." I'm choosing to play something else, which I will fully enjoy, until the things that I don't like are addressed. If they are never addressed, then i will just keep finding other games to enjoy, without any irritating idiosyncrasies.

Still, I really look forward to playing this mod as I think CK2 is the perfect platform to represent this world in a strategy game. I'll just wait until tribal governments are added in to better fully represent the varied and interesting setting.

Is it really that major of a thing that their government type says feudal instead of tribal? I could understand if it was some game breaking thing like the King of the Iron Throne being a theocracy but this is more just a minor little detail that is really not that major of an inaccuracy to make you fully never ever play the mod again, I just don't personally see how it could put you off every playing the mod. If you want to never play it again until that is changed then sure but it seems like a bit of an overreaction to me

 

[blackninja9939]

It has a lot to do with how the tribal mechanics are essentially a stereotyped and romanticised view of tribalism, just like the Wildlings are. So they fit together perfectly. The same applies to the Dothraki - the nomad mechanics perfectly allow for the Khalasar to move around and to be made up of other Kos who can break away or take over on the death of the Khal. It's as if Paradox made their mechanics for this mod before they thought about the real world. Declining to include tribalism just seems like a wasted opportunity.

I can understand that, I can fully understand disagreeing with the current implementation of the willdings but I cannot understand how that one thing which affects a relatively small area would cause someone to completely stop playing the mod

 

[blackninja9939]

If you're playing near a culture or mechanic you don't like, it can reduce the enjoyment a bit. I personally found it a bit dull to play near the Dothraki before they were proper nomads, since they didn't behave in a way I thought fitted the canon. That probably meant that I played less than I would have, since I preferred to wait for them to be updated.

Again I can understand not wanting to play them if they do not fit your view but that really would not ruin the entire mod surely?

 

[blackninja9939]

Not the entire mod, but if you disagree with the way the Wildlings work it would make it dull to play in the North, or if you disagree with the Dothraki it might be less fun to play as the Free Cities. So it leaves some players only seriously playing one area and then getting bored.

Except he said that he (and yes I assume he due to instant internet bias) will not play the mod at all until it gets changed

 

[blackninja9939]

After having just messed around briefly with the tribal gov I have remembered that I am pretty sure you need Charlemagne to play tribals, we would rather not lock them out for those without Charlemagne if avoidable which it is, might look at a compromise by having a tribal government in the feudal category

 

[blackninja9939]

I'm pretty sure you don't, that would have locked people out of features they paid for if that was so. Can you try disabling Charlemagne and loading up to see what happens? I can dig out the patch notes and dev diaries for Charlemagne later to check.

I can stick "tribal" governments in the feudal category, though. We could also look at restricting "feudal" to Westeros and having slightly different government types for monarchies in Essos for flavour purposes.

Just loaded up vanilla and they are apparently not restricted to charlemange although I could've sworn that was one of the features from the DLC, must just be my memory going lol
As for making essos versions of monarchies that would seem rather superfluous to me? As far as we know their monarchies do not function too differently from the westerosi ones and the differences that are present tend to be weird cultural ones which are accounted for in the mod

 

[blackninja9939]

It allows us to shunt certain mechanics to the government type rather than the religion, which allows their religion to change around a bit. There are also certain things like Iqta mechanics, which can be used to create an exotic feel. Decadence is probably too weird to implement, but you can have them doing other unusual things without being stuck with one culture or faith. There are certain cultures where they don't feel quite feudal, but don't feel quite tribal either.

But most of their things are religious or cultural beliefs not to do with their rulership and anyway for the most part people in the east do not convert anyway and have not really for a good few thousand years, same with most of westeros their religions and cultures are fairly stagnant

 

[blackninja9939]

Iqta could possibly be applied to extremely exotic cultures beyond the Bone Mountains. Asshai and Yi Ti are possible candidates. It'd be nice to give the area some more personality, especially because there isn't much canon information.

Problem with that is we do not want to just give random cultures random differences just for the hell of it, they already have their actual cultural mechanics in place so just giving them a special government type for the hell of it with random differences from normal just cause we make it up is not what we want to do.

 

[blackninja9939]

True. Why do LPs have a different government type to everyone else though? What I'd prefer to do is to simply set a special government type (by renaming that) called feudal for Westeros, and have everything else called "Monarchy". One of the key differences should be that Westerosi should have very low demesne limits and be very restricted in the types of holdings they can have. Essosi Monarchies should be allowed to rule from city holdings, making the transition between republicanism and monarchism seamless. A semi-theocratic configuration for Norvos and possibly Yi Ti could allow for temples and either cities or castles to be held by the ruler, as well as locking in a specific succession type.

The LP government type is done for some special events and to have them be named LPs also you cannot actually tell the difference in game as they have the same government features and localisation. Having a complete duplicate government for Essos called Monarchy with the only change letting them hold castles is kinda pointless, there is no evidence they rule like that unless they are republics, also Norvos is ruled by a Theocracy not a king who also holds temples etc just ruled by their religious head. And Yi Ti is definitely not a theocracy of any kind?