Nomads and de jure drift

[heliostellar]

The dejure kingdom map becomes a giant mess pretty quickly as an ascending nomad...

Here's the dejure map of my 867 Cumans playthrough as of 918 AD (~50 years into the game):

Spoiler

My primary Kingdom of Cumania (Uly Dala) without my overt intervention has de jure drifted most of the territory of the EMPIRES of Tartaria, Volga-Ural, and a good chunk of Khazaria and Turan.

This is just one kingdom among several that I hold.

Is this caused by the Domination decisions? Is it WAD? It will have the effect of making my blob much, much harder to break up...

 

[Dayvit78]

I'm surprised I haven't seen this topic come up yet.
It's incredibly weird that the steppes become one big de jure empire almost instantly.

In addition, because of the way culture/religion works, alot of cultures are lost when steppe hordes take over.

 

[heliostellar]

I'm surprised I haven't seen this topic come up yet.
It's incredibly weird that the steppes become one big de jure empire almost instantly.

In addition, because of the way culture/religion works, alot of cultures are lost when steppe hordes take over.

It will make the game extremely easy... could you imagine if tribals could do this? You'd never see realms shatter again because whoever gets the primary kingdom, in this case Cumania gets control of the vast majority of the de jure empire.

So, it has the effect of making the nomad game even easier when the game is already a cakewalk... in the game, I was eligible for the Greatest of All Khans decision and was just waiting for my next character since that one was getting too old.

 

[Benismann]

No this is just nomad mechanics.

 

[kgptzac]

The concept of "de jure" border is the hierarchy of land and titles traditionally associated with higher or lower rank. Such tradition means little in the grand battle royale that is the Great Steppe region, hence why the de jure borders are allowed to be extremely fluid to the point "de jure" has little to no meaning: the de facto is the de jure. It's a hard pill to swallow if you're like me, who look at de jure map mode and take comfort of seeing familiar shapes and colors, but it's just how the nomads work.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

The concept of "de jure" border is the hierarchy of land and titles traditionally associated with higher or lower rank. Such tradition means little in the grand battle royale that is the Great Steppe region, hence why the de jure borders are allowed to be extremely fluid to the point "de jure" has little to no meaning: the de facto is the de jure. It's a hard pill to swallow if you're like me, who look at de jure map mode and take comfort of seeing familiar shapes and colors, but it's just how the nomads work.

Perhaps a better way to represent this would be to make Nomadic characters ignore de jure penalties? Maybe speed up de jure transfer for them too, but not to the point that in mere decades they create de jure kingdoms bigger than the whole Byzantine Empire.

 

[Benismann]

The concept of "de jure" border is the hierarchy of land and titles traditionally associated with higher or lower rank. Such tradition means little in the grand battle royale that is the Great Steppe region, hence why the de jure borders are allowed to be extremely fluid to the point "de jure" has little to no meaning: the de facto is the de jure. It's a hard pill to swallow if you're like me, who look at de jure map mode and take comfort of seeing familiar shapes and colors, but it's just how the nomads work.

Ok, sure, fine. Except that reasoning breaks if said kingdom ever gets dissolved, coz now most nomads in the area are stuck trying to dominate this massive chunk of land for no reason at all. Same with empires.
Your explanation would make sense if de-jure shifts would revert if the kingdom is destroyed or loses said lands at all (not just to another kingdom)

 

[heliostellar]

The concept of "de jure" border is the hierarchy of land and titles traditionally associated with higher or lower rank. Such tradition means little in the grand battle royale that is the Great Steppe region, hence why the de jure borders are allowed to be extremely fluid to the point "de jure" has little to no meaning: the de facto is the de jure. It's a hard pill to swallow if you're like me, who look at de jure map mode and take comfort of seeing familiar shapes and colors, but it's just how the nomads work.

This response fails to take into account that this is a computer game. It also fails to take into consideration how the de jure borders are largely there as bread crumbs to help the AI after multiple successions.

Instantly adding any additional territory to a player's dejure title is a huge win and game breaking IMHO, because whoever gets that land is permanently immunized from the normal mechanics that organically resist expansion like factions and claimants. Nomads do not need this "feature" to remain stable. The nomad game is already easy enough.

Here is yet another of my games where I'm still a king, this time it's as Oghuz. I literally only declared minor tributary wars aside from the domination war that got me the Syr Darya, but here's the dejure kingdom map in 892:

Spoiler

I am still a king. I have consumed the entirety of Uly Dala, most of Qara Dala (my second kingdom), half the kingfoms of Oghuz Il, Sibir, and Ob... It's only 25 years in and I have not fought any major wars of size (trying to expand mostly by diplomacy). I've fought a few skirmishes, firstly to dominate my kingdom title, and then maybe 2-3 Bring Under tribute CBs on count-level characters only.

I'm generally finding that even an OPM nomad that goes hard raiding Transoxiana and Tahirid is swimming in gold within the first 5 years.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

I'm surprised I haven't seen this topic come up yet.
It's incredibly weird that the steppes become one big de jure empire almost instantly.

In addition, because of the way culture/religion works, alot of cultures are lost when steppe hordes take over.

Its come up before, near release

The concept of "de jure" border is the hierarchy of land and titles traditionally associated with higher or lower rank. Such tradition means little in the grand battle royale that is the Great Steppe region, hence why the de jure borders are allowed to be extremely fluid to the point "de jure" has little to no meaning: the de facto is the de jure. It's a hard pill to swallow if you're like me, who look at de jure map mode and take comfort of seeing familiar shapes and colors, but it's just how the nomads work.

But this applies even when they conquer non steppe land no? The rapid shift would apply to feudal lands too then