North America Patch Thread

[Ishmael_Dandalo]

Hello all,


Riffing off of some of the additions to the New World in Golden Century (holy orders and pirate republics), I felt inspired to start a thread about what additional changes and features the community might want to see in the Americas. Although Conquest of Paradise and El Dorado enhanced playing in the Americas greatly when compared to EU3, some of these changes have been undercut by subsequent expansion features like institutions and government reforms for indigenous nations and the Treaty of Tordesillas and the lack of non-European cardinals for Catholic colonials. I've seen a least a good handful of comments on the threads about improving New World gameplay mechanics and I've been giving the Americas a fair amount of thought personally. While I have at least half a dozen new mechanic or improvement ideas, this thread can serve as a repository for suggestions or wants for the community as a whole. As a rule, let's try and make this thread as useful to the devs as possible and include what area of the game our suggestions aim to improve and why we want that area expanded.



My own ideas for New World improvements, post-GC, break down as such:



Totemism



- Totemist religion mechanics - Totemist nations can designate up to three Sacred Sites in owned provinces the American continents (one per region), giving bonuses based on terrain type. Sacred Sites give terrain-specific bonuses as long as they are controlled by the original designating nation - meaning they can be lost or regained. In addition, Totemist rulers can be baptized into an Old World faith, giving diplomatic bonuses with nations of that religion. The reasoning for this addition is fairly straightforward - Totemists have no mechanics. In addition, one can argue that this lack of mechanics is not the same as Zoroastrians and Jews lacking mechanics since Totemists cover an entire continent for the majority of the games time period and maintained spiritual/religious practices during their contact with European powers. Gameplay-wise, Sacred Sites also augment Native Councils' migration mechanics since Sacred Sites designated in the early game will remain in specific provinces to be reconquered/colonized in the late game, allowing the player to focus on claiming Sacred Sites in strategic locations.



- Representation of the North American Fur Trade

- The fur trade is represented by several semi-related mechanics...



Gun Trade



- First, is the introduction of the Gun Trade diplomatic action for primitive nations in the Americas. This mechanic is similar to the Charter Trade Company action from Dharma in that Native Council governments can pay a large lump sum of ducats to a Westernized power to gain the tech cost of that power. The ducat cost of this action will vary based on the disposition and strategic interest of the Western power, but in general will increase with the advent of each new institution and will allow the Native Council to pay for tech as if they had every institution but one of the cooperating power. This bonus last only 15 years, meaning Native Councils will need to maintain friendly relations with Western powers and a steady cash flow based on the below mechanics.



- The intention of this mechanic is to extend the usefulness of the Native Reforms mechanics. One of the features in the Americas that currently makes the least sense to me is the Native Reforms and other Native Council mechanics since they are, on one hand, pushed to reform as soon as possible but then, on the other hand, are stripped of all of their unique mechanics, buildings, and bonuses once they do reform. With the Gun Trade diplomatic action, Native Councils will be able to stay up to date in tech without abandoning their unique mechanics as long as they are successful. Since the cost for this action increases throughout the course of the game, there still can be a point at which it's worth it for Native Councils to reform but with the Gun Trade, federations, native reform bonuses, and native buildings can endure later into the game. Native Councils will be countries that are constantly racing to keep up in tech while possessing a large number of bonuses from native reforms and buildings.





- Fur Traders Estate



- For any tag with it's capital on the North American continent that owns at least 1 fur-producing provinces will receive the Fur Traders estate (Native Councils included).



- Fur Traders:



- Can only be assigned to fur-producing provinces

-(self-explanatory)



- Province effects: Increased goods produced

-(again self-explanatory)



- Positive loyalty effects: Increased movement speed, increased improve relations/diplo rep.

-(meant to represent the role of fur traders in establishing fur trade routes and game trails and the fact that fur traders both deal with foreigners and are foreigners themselves)



- Disaster: Ecological Collapse - Similar to increasing development in gold provinces. Over-exploitation of fur resources can lead to massive penalties to goods produced and other modifiers. Lasts until influence of Fur Traders has been reduced.



- I'm open for suggestions for what the estate interactions might be - or I may edit this part later.



- The goal of the Fur Traders estate is first to represent the importance of the fur trade in North America and give native countries a way to boost their cash flow as a way of affording the new Gun Trade mechanic.





French Voyageur Colonies



- French colonial nations will not have the Fur Traders estate. Instead French-cultured colonial nations in North America will now have the French Colonial Government instead of the standard Colonial Government. French Colonial Governments will still have governors that can be appointed and replaced and pay tariffs to their overlord, but will now also unlock Merchant Republic mechanics.



- French Colonial Governments:

- receive +50% native assimilation bonus

- have a 20-province soft cap

- gain the MR goods-produced bonus

- can place Trade Posts

- cannot lead Trade Leagues



- Instead of Trade Leagues, French Colonial Governments are able to join and/or lead Native Federations like a Native Council government, representing France's history of allying and trading with indigenous peoples of the Americas rather than conquering them like the English.



- Like MRs, French Colonials also gain access to Factions. In the case of the French, these factions are:



- ADM - The Jesuits/Missionaries - representing French missionaries like Nicollet

- +2 papal influence - (to encourage French Americans to stay Catholic)

- +2 missionary strength - (because they're missionaries)

- -1 diplomatic reputation - (representing the Jesuits being a bit pushy)

- DIP - The Voyageurs - representing traders and explorers venturing deep into the American continent

- +30 trade power abroad - (representing Voyageur trading networks)

- +1 diplomatic reputation - (French traders often intermarried and lived alongside their indigenous counterparts)

- -10% tax modifier - (mobile traders are hard to tax)

- MIL – The Settlers – representing French settlers from metropolitan France

- +10% morale - (because they’re so excited about being French)

- +20% settler chance - (they’re settlers)

- +20% aggressive expansion impact - (intensive colonization and conquest will make trade partners for suspicious of your intent)


-The intent with the French Colonial Government is to increase France’s trade reach into the continent without necessarily needing to conquer the vast swathes of land (something France did historically). The government is also meant to work symbiotically with the Native Council’s large boosts to goods produced through the Fur Traders estate and the Three Sisters Field building. In addition, with Native Councils sticking around longer because of the Gun Trade mechanic, French Colonies will possess some of the only trade buildings in the area. The Voyageurs will make money on trade, Native Councils will make it on production. The French Colonial Government should encourage players to keep indigenous nations around as trade partners and allies rather than conquering everyone in sight.


Afro-Caribbean Religions

- The final semi-fleshed-out new feature I would like to see are Afro-Caribbean religions represented in the Americas. Still present in the Caribbean and surrounding areas today, Afro-Caribbean religions played an historically important role in the region. This feature is built on the pre-existing Fetishist religion.

- Starting either in the Age of Absolutism or after the Triangle Trade event has fired, an event can fire in a Caribbean colonial nation converting a province to Fetishist (event text is WIP). This may happen multiple times and is paired with an increased unrest penalty.

- Independent tags with their capitals in the Caribbean colonial region (pirates included, but not Native Councils) with a certain percent of their provinces following the Fetishist faith can trigger an event where their governing elite is approached by a Fetishist priests with the option of converting the nation to Fetishist. Caribbean nations that do convert will unlock two Caribbean-specific Fetishist cults in addition to the already available cults associated with their former religion (Christianity, Islam, Totemist, etc.). They are:


- Voodoo/Voodou - +20% manpower recovery speed - A religious practice associated with healing and prominent in Haiti and the Gulf Coast.

- Obeah/Obi - -10% fire damage received - Historically important in Jamaica during Tackey's Rebellion and other slave revolts.


Miscellaneous

- Several other ideas I haven't completely fleshed-out:

- Frontier Conspiracy - A unique disaster for independent former colonial nations modeled after the Burr Conspiracy in the United States where ambitious advisors attempt to carve their own empire out of your distant territories.

- Iroquois Confederacy - Unique government type and mission tree meant to represent the Iroquois Confederacy as well as its expansion into the Ohio River Valley during the Beaver Wars.

- The State of Muskogee and William Augustus Bowles - A unique maroon government reform for reformed Native Councils in the New World similar to the Cossack government type of the Old World as well as an associated event chain for historical personality William Augustus Bowles.

- Take to the Plains Decision - A decision for reformed Native Councils on the Great Plains to change government type to a Steppe Horde.


Conclusion

- As I mentioned at the start, this list of feature suggestions is far from complete and I would love to hear what others would like to see added to the Americas. Let's get the Americas patch hype rolling!

 

[BuchiTaton]

Nice suggestions.

For Afroamerican representation I have the option of use the "Expel minority" that gonna be added with Golden Century, the idea is like this:
1- You need to have one provinces in Trade Company regions, like for example in coastal West Africa.
2- Then you can use the "Expel minority" on that province to culture and religion convert the target american colonial province to the ones of the TC province. This gonna cost you some money but also gonna reduce the development of the TC province used. This action dont change the culture or religion of the TC province, and cant be done if the TC province have just 3 points of development.
3- If the colonial american province produce Sugar, Cotton or Tobacco it gonna get some bonus to production, trade power or development cost.
4- Of course this province is goin to get some events that could trigger "Slave uprising" that can end forming some independent nation like Quilombos and Palenques of Iberoamerica and Haiti.

Gun Trade can be part of a more complex exclusive Institutions-like mechanic for native nations. Representing the introductio of:
1- Horses
2- Steel weapons
3- Guns

That like you said can be used to have a powerfull army without lose the other characteristics they have. In the other hand:
4- Monumental architecture
5- Writing
6- Metallurgy
Can be other institutions that let you get the level of Mesomaerican and Andean civilizations.

Disease is the other big elment that is needed to add to the game and is key to represent the interaction between European, American and African nations.
- Helping europeans in America.
- Making it difficult in Africa.

Native boats must be added for "primitive" nations, as an option to represent maritime cultures like Haida, Carib, Taino or even Polynesian and Melanesian.

Republicas de Indios and Encomenderos are some estates needed to represent Spanish Americas.

Finally I think is great idea to have one thread to share options to improve the region, but is better to name it for the whole AMERICAS instead of just North America, since almost all the new mechanics gonna be shared for the continent and considering the current state of the game one unified update to all Americas going to be a better option.

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

Many solid ideas in this thread . North America could certainly do with some new mechanics, though I feel the expulsion of minorities is sufficient in terms of new mechanics for European colonizers themselves. I would simply advocate for redrawn Colonial Regions, new mechanics for Colonial Revolters, and new mechanics for Indigenous peoples. I would even be perfectly content if no new provinces were added but we got some new mechanics to play around with in the New World to make it more a interesting experience.

As for my specific suggestions regarding Canada and the Eastern United States, I believe implementing the following five would be the most imperative. I'd also like to get your guys' thoughts on these

1. Hudson's Bay Trade Company Region

This I covered in an old thread of mine (see my signature) but Hudson's Bay was under the control of first the Hudson's Bay Company and the North West Company, which upon their unification gave the British a monopoly over the fur trade in the region which was then known as Rupert's Land. From the beginning it had been chartered to Prince Rupert of the Rhine alongside the other founders of the HBC in order to take advantage of the fur trade, and was also contested by French claims as they sought to expand into the area. Furthermore, for the entirety of the game's timeline, Rupert's Land was administered separately from the rest of British North America, and the concept of Canada including the borders of the modern state did not arise until the 1860s.

2. New Borders for Colonial Canada

Currently these borders correspond more or less to modern international borders, but for most of the game they actually looked quite different. Aside from making the Hudson's Bay node a Trade Company Region, the lands of the St. Laurence and Great Lakes basins should be incorporated into the Canadian Colonial Region. This is because during the game's time period, "Canada" referred to all of New France except for Louisiana, Acadia (modern-day Nova Scotia and New Brunswick), and Newfoundland. Therefore, I would instead base the Colonial Regions in the area off the following maps (just to warn you, there are quite a few and some are quite big):

Spoiler: Maps of New France and the Province of Quebec after the Quebec Act of 1774

3. Western Frontiers

This would be a relatively small addition, but I believe it would be the best way to represent the notion of "Manifest Destiny" which dominated US foreign policy for much of the nation's existence. It propelled the United States' western expansion into Native American lands, and was even one of the contributing factors in the invasion of British North America in the War of 1812. Therefore, in order to model this dramatically fast push westward, I propose that any nation with American Culture be able to establish Western Frontiers, which would be the same as Siberian Frontiers but with a more appropriate name for the New World.

Source: Encyclopaedia Britannica

4. Totemist Syncretism

Since Totemism in-game represents a very broad collection of different spiritualities and belief systems of First Nations, Inuit, and Native American peoples, coming up with mechanics for it can be quite difficult as it was not a truly unified religion. One that could be applicable however, would be a syncretism mechanic similar to the Tengri or Fetishist faiths already implemented in-game. The reason behind this would be that initially one of the ways by which European missionaries were able to convert Indigenous communities was through adapting their traditional beliefs to coexist alongside Christianity and vice-versa, combining many elements of both in order to make for easier conversion (the Mi'kmaq adoption of Catholicism being a notable example). Therefore, Totemists should be given a Syncretism mechanic granting some bonus modifiers (I haven't come up with any values as of yet), and whichever religion they Syncretise with will have a bonus to Missionary Strength in that country's cores.

Source: The Canadian Encyclopedia (Historica Canada)

5. Dynamic Colonial Cultures

The dynamic appearance of American Culture in-game is a really interesting mechanic which I believe could easily be expanded upon. There are many cultures in the New World which emerged distinct from their "mother cultures" back in Europe, and they deserve representation as well. Therefore, I propose that each of the main colonising powers have a Colonial culture which can appear in the different colonial regions they possess after a given amount of time or when their colonies revolt. To better illustrate my point, I have made a list here of some suggestions:

Spoiler: Dynamic Colonial Cultures

Colonial Canada

• Quebecois (French Culture Group)
• Canadian (British Culture Group)
• Newfoundlander (Celtic Culture Group)

Colonial Eastern United States

• American (British Culture Group)
• Deutschamerikaner (German Culture Group)
• Floridian (Iberian Culture Group)
• Acadian (French Culture Group)

Colonial Louisiana

• Cajun (French Culture Group)
• Midwesterner (British Culture Group)

The list is by no means complete, only a mere sample of possible dynamic cultures. I could use some help in finding new names, but this is what I've been thinking of so far.

 

[Ishmael_Dandalo]

Yes!!! I was hoping this is what this thread would turn into!

For Afroamerican representation I have the option of use the "Expel minority" that gonna be added with Golden Century

Maybe this could even be a passive thing that happens. As in, if you own trade company province here and colonial province there, the culture and/or religion flips by event.

"Slave uprising" that can end forming some independent nation like Quilombos and Palenques of Iberoamerica and Haiti

And yes, I agree. These ought to appear. The Haitian Revolution is far too amazing to be glossed over.

Gun Trade can be part of a more complex exclusive Institutions-like mechanic for native nations. Representing the introductio of:
1- Horses
2- Steel weapons
3- Guns

I said "Gun Trade," but I should have been more more general. My intent was that it was supposed to represent the indigenous side of the fur trade in general, i.e. trapping a ton of furs and trading it for European goods and technology. That being said, I like the idea of horses in particular as some sort of institution-type feature. I know the Columbian Exchange is represented by an event currently, but.... who's to say it can't be expanded?

Disease is the other big elment that is needed to add to the game and is key to represent the interaction between European, American and African nations.
- Helping europeans in America.
- Making it difficult in Africa.

I think for sure the "Rapid Collapse of Society" triggered modifier ought to be changed. Partly because we're hoping that Native Councils don't have to adopt standard institutions and partly because it never seemed to make sense that adopting the Printing Press suddenly cured everyone of smallpox.

Native boats

Yes!! I vaguely recall there also being several East Coast tribes that were prolific ship builders, but I've long since forgotten who it was. I had thought about this a bit too and figured that it could perhaps be tied to a certain religious reform or Sacred Site bonus for owning a coastal terrain province. Otherwise, maybe it could be a sea-going variant of the Native Council government.

Republicas de Indios and Encomenderos are some estates needed to represent Spanish Americas.

I am unfamiliar, but keenly interested.

Finally I think is great idea to have one thread to share options to improve the region, but is better to name it for the whole AMERICAS instead of just North America, since almost all the new mechanics gonna be shared for the continent and considering the current state of the game one unified update to all Americas going to be a better option.

Yeah... you're absolutely right. I guess I was a bit fixated on the fur trade and kept thinking specifically about the Great Lakes region.

Spoiler: Maps of New France and the Province of Quebec after the Quebec Act of 1774

Neat maps! I think that'd be an interesting change, particularly in the way it splits the northern bits of the Louisiana region from Louisiana when I would think that they strategically have more to do with Canada and the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes region. On a side note, it would work well with my idea for the French Colonial Government since it would mean that a colonial nation in Quebec wouldn't be competing directly with another French colonial nation in the Great Lakes portion of Louisiana.

Since Totemism in-game represents a very broad collection of different spiritualities and belief systems of First Nations, Inuit, and Native American peoples, coming up with mechanics for it can be quite difficult as it was not a truly unified religion.

I agree with this. I'm guessing that was also the devs' reasoning with the Fetishist mechanics in Africa, that rather than trying to represent a diverse set of religious practices, have one religion that's customizable to fit the region as a whole. That was my intent with suggestion as well. I think syncretism would be good, but my thought with Sacred Sites is that it would represent, based on what I understand, the deep importance of specific locations to many indigenous peoples (i.e. the Black Hills for the Sioux Nation).

5. Dynamic Colonial Cultures

I don't know if you saw it, but this is already happening in Golden Century apparently. I can't remember off the top of my head which dev diary it is, but one of the devs commented with a picture showing an event that adds Mexican culture to New Spain. Confirmed so far are Mexican, Brazilian, and American. I don't think they've established yet how those cultures are categorized (is American always British?). Personally, I hope they take your approach and have an emergent culture for each culture group for each colonial region. If not, however, maybe something we can do is collect a list on this thread for each colonial region and culture group with yours as a starting point.

 

[Canute VII]

Gun Trade can be part of a more complex exclusive Institutions-like mechanic for native nations. Representing the introductio of:
1- Horses
2- Steel weapons
3- Guns

That like you said can be used to have a powerfull army without lose the other characteristics they have. In the other hand:
4- Monumental architecture
5- Writing
6- Metallurgy
Can be other institutions that let you get the level of Mesomaerican and Andean civilizations.

I put down some related thoughts on this in the following suggestion a while ago: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...o-enhance-game-play-in-the-new-world.1125591/

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

I think syncretism would be good, but my thought with Sacred Sites is that it would represent, based on what I understand, the deep importance of specific locations to many indigenous peoples (i.e. the Black Hills for the Sioux Nation).

No reason why we can't have both

I don't know if you saw it, but this is already happening in Golden Century apparently. I can't remember off the top of my head which dev diary it is, but one of the devs commented with a picture showing an event that adds Mexican culture to New Spain. Confirmed so far are Mexican, Brazilian, and American. I don't think they've established yet how those cultures are categorized (is American always British?).

I didn't know that! Thanks for the info! American culture has been in the game for a while now, and only appears in formerly-British colonies as it is a part of the British Culture Group.

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

Gun Trade can be part of a more complex exclusive Institutions-like mechanic for native nations. Representing the introductio of:
1- Horses
2- Steel weapons
3- Guns

That like you said can be used to have a powerfull army without lose the other characteristics they have. In the other hand:
4- Monumental architecture
5- Writing
6- Metallurgy
Can be other institutions that let you get the level of Mesomaerican and Andean civilizations.

I love this idea as it would give natives more of a fighting chance against the European colonisers, and would add more nuance to their interactions as opposed to just Europe steamrolling the New World. Nice!

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

Great suggestions here! Particularly the Gun Trade/Fur Trade idea.

One general thing I would like to say is that I think the devs goal should be to have a series of patches focusing on different parts of North America. Thiat way you would get a least one section of the continent done right instead of the whole place done a little less badly. And any new mechanics would be tailored to specific groups to give them more flavor instead of something slapdash and generic. The downside of course is that Paradox would probably want to mix patches like that in with patches for other parts of the world, so it would take a while to complete all of North America, but I think that's better than a half baked patch/DLC like Conquest of Paradise

 

[Ishmael_Dandalo]

With the Gun Trade diplomatic action, Native Councils will be able to stay up to date in tech without abandoning their unique mechanics as long as they are successful.

I put down some related thoughts on this in the following suggestion a while ago:

Gun Trade can be part of a more complex exclusive Institutions-like mechanic for native nations. Representing the introductio of:
1- Horses
2- Steel weapons
3- Guns

That like you said can be used to have a powerfull army without lose the other characteristics they have. In the other hand:
4- Monumental architecture
5- Writing
6- Metallurgy
Can be other institutions that let you get the level of Mesomaerican and Andean civilizations.

It looks like we have a consensus that we aren't satisfied with Native Council countries' current relationship with institutions and would like to Native Councils be able to be more flexible with how they advance technologically. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the consensus is that we don't want Native Councils to just be able to reform more easily, but for them to have more options while in their Native Council government and using their unique mechanics and bonuses.

Is this a fair summary?

Additionally, I'd like to see some unique content even after they reform (like the unique maroon government and Take to the Plains decision I mentioned) and mechanics throughout their run (like mechanics for the Totemist religion).

No reason why we can't have both

I like the way you think.

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

For Totemism, I suggest dividing the religion up into several groups some that share mechanics, some with unique mechanics (I apologize in advance that not all of these are fully thought out)

Group 1: These are the true "Totemist" religions. They would have a system similar to Hindu Deities where every ruler gets a Totem spirit. Unlike Hinduism, this totem is randomly assigned. In republics, the candidates totem will be displayed in the election event and for monarchies, you will be able to see your heir's totem. You will also be able to change your ruler's totem for a fee. This reflects the fact that many Native Americans believed you could transfer medicine from one person to another (but the person with the strong medicine usually wanted compensation). These religions would all be syncretic. They will have no base modifiers. All the religion bonuses come from the ruler's totem or synchronizing with another religion. The Group one religions are as follows:
- Medewiwin: The religion of Eastern and Central Algonquians and Iroquoian peoples. The name refers to the Medicine Societies that were popular with these groups
- Law of Peace: Religion of the Iroquois and also based around medicine societies. This religion would appear in an Iroquoian culture group province sometime in the 16th century and spread from a center of reformation.
- Medicine Lodge: The sun dance cults of the Great Plains. The Plains Algonquians and possibly the Siouans would have this religion
- Southeastern Totemism: Religion of the Muskogean peoples who are successors to the Mississipian Kingdoms

Group 2: Shamanist religions, where a tribes religion is centered around the belief in the power of a single medicine man. Like Group 1, these religions are syncretic and have no base modifiers. In the Group 2 religions, you choose a Shaman from several candidates, similarly to the way you hire advisors. You accumulate religion points over time that can be put towards hiring a new shaman and make up any difference with ducats. You hire a new shaman when the old one dies. If he doesn't die fast enough on his own, you can kill him. Your citizens may kill the shaman if things are going badly in your country (loosing a war for example). Group 2 religions are as follows:
- Shamanism: It's back! The religion of most of the Apache and Navajo, Shonone, Kiowa as well as the Cree
- Pacific Northwest Shamanism: Religion of the Haida, Salish, Chinook and Yokuts. Actually all of these people had unique religious practices that don't quite fit the model I've outlined, but having a religion for one OPM wouldn't work very well, so here we are.

3 - The Morning Start Cult: The religion of the Caddoan tribes. They had a complex pantheon of gods and goddesses, the planet Venus as both the Morning Star and the Evening Star being the two most important. The Caddoan tribes usually had several medicine societies that competed for dominance, with big annual ceremonies where they would all try to impress the people with magic tricks. The Morning Star Cult has several medicine societies with unique bonuses. You choose one as the dominant society, but they may be displaced by an event, forcing you to choose a different society. This event is more likely to fire in times of trouble.

4 - Kiva: The Pueblo religion. This has Kiva societies similar to Protestant Church Aspects. you can promote up to three Kiva societies using accumulated church power

 

[FantasticFwoosh]

Afro-Caribbean Religions

- The final semi-fleshed-out new feature I would like to see are Afro-Caribbean religions represented in the Americas. Still present in the Caribbean and surrounding areas today, Afro-Caribbean religions played an historically important role in the region. This feature is built on the pre-existing Fetishist religion.

- Starting either in the Age of Absolutism or after the Triangle Trade event has fired, an event can fire in a Caribbean colonial nation converting a province to Fetishist (event text is WIP). This may happen multiple times and is paired with an increased unrest penalty.

- Independent tags with their capitals in the Caribbean colonial region (pirates included, but not Native Councils) with a certain percent of their provinces following the Fetishist faith can trigger an event where their governing elite is approached by a Fetishist priests with the option of converting the nation to Fetishist. Caribbean nations that do convert will unlock two Caribbean-specific Fetishist cults in addition to the already available cults associated with their former religion (Christianity, Islam, Totemist, etc.). They are:


- Voodoo/Voodou - +20% manpower recovery speed - A religious practice associated with healing and prominent in Haiti and the Gulf Coast.
- Obeah/Obi - -10% fire damage received - Historically important in Jamaica during Tackey's Rebellion and other slave revolts.

This i feel should be the focus of a immersion patch and initially a playable heresy from unrest of Fetishistic nations in Africa after it spawns after some rebellions over colonial lands like you suggest, based primarily on nations who have a lot of slave linked (or just slaves directly) trade goods within the 'Triangle.'

I can't speak for knowledge on Voodoo or Obeah/Obi to really comment about them, but they may be similar to the fetishism they come from so would they be rendered the respective heretic shia and sufri of the fetishism group with different outcome to accepting cults? Rather than just another flavour of the same fetishism.

• Im not certain on the rest of the content including the estates, i can understand the significance of these groups but they would need some institutions first, given that horses are linked to feudalism and typically gun & fur trade to colonialism/global trade which takes longer for natives to grab without help.

 

[Ishmael_Dandalo]

For Totemism, I suggest dividing the religion up into several groups some that share mechanics, some with unique mechanics (I apologize in advance that not all of these are fully thought out)

Group 1: These are the true "Totemist" religions. They would have a system similar to Hindu Deities where every ruler gets a Totem spirit. Unlike Hinduism, this totem is randomly assigned. In republics, the candidates totem will be displayed in the election event and for monarchies, you will be able to see your heir's totem. You will also be able to change your ruler's totem for a fee. This reflects the fact that many Native Americans believed you could transfer medicine from one person to another (but the person with the strong medicine usually wanted compensation). These religions would all be syncretic. They will have no base modifiers. All the religion bonuses come from the ruler's totem or synchronizing with another religion. The Group one religions are as follows:
- Medewiwin: The religion of Eastern and Central Algonquians and Iroquoian peoples. The name refers to the Medicine Societies that were popular with these groups
- Law of Peace: Religion of the Iroquois and also based around medicine societies. This religion would appear in an Iroquoian culture group province sometime in the 16th century and spread from a center of reformation.
- Medicine Lodge: The sun dance cults of the Great Plains. The Plains Algonquians and possibly the Siouans would have this religion
- Southeastern Totemism: Religion of the Muskogean peoples who are successors to the Mississipian Kingdoms

Group 2: Shamanist religions, where a tribes religion is centered around the belief in the power of a single medicine man. Like Group 1, these religions are syncretic and have no base modifiers. In the Group 2 religions, you choose a Shaman from several candidates, similarly to the way you hire advisors. You accumulate religion points over time that can be put towards hiring a new shaman and make up any difference with ducats. You hire a new shaman when the old one dies. If he doesn't die fast enough on his own, you can kill him. Your citizens may kill the shaman if things are going badly in your country (loosing a war for example). Group 2 religions are as follows:
- Shamanism: It's back! The religion of most of the Apache and Navajo, Shonone, Kiowa as well as the Cree
- Pacific Northwest Shamanism: Religion of the Haida, Salish, Chinook and Yokuts. Actually all of these people had unique religious practices that don't quite fit the model I've outlined, but having a religion for one OPM wouldn't work very well, so here we are.

3 - The Morning Start Cult: The religion of the Caddoan tribes. They had a complex pantheon of gods and goddesses, the planet Venus as both the Morning Star and the Evening Star being the two most important. The Caddoan tribes usually had several medicine societies that competed for dominance, with big annual ceremonies where they would all try to impress the people with magic tricks. The Morning Star Cult has several medicine societies with unique bonuses. You choose one as the dominant society, but they may be displaced by an event, forcing you to choose a different society. This event is more likely to fire in times of trouble.

4 - Kiva: The Pueblo religion. This has Kiva societies similar to Protestant Church Aspects. you can promote up to three Kiva societies using accumulated church power

Something on this scale would be great! It's clear that you've got a fair bit of background knowledge on the subject. Just so I understand, are you saying that Totemism should be divided into four religions and then the sub-groups within those religions (Law of Peace, Medewiwin, etc.) would be akin to the schools of Islam mechanics-wise? As in, one set of modifiers and mechanics for being Totemist and then another set for following Medewiwin or Law of Peace? If so, I think that's pretty intriguing.

Also, I like the idea of the Law of Peace popping up and spreading later in the game. Even if the devs don't do this with Law of Peace specifically, I like how it would have the Americas evolving over time and make the mid-game different from the late game.

On the subject of the Iroquois, am I right in understanding that the Law of Peace in part formed the philosophical and spiritual framework for the Iroquois Confederacy? If so, perhaps this is where the Iroquois Confederacy mechanics can be - or at least Law of Peace could synch well with the Confederacy mechanics. I think it would be fun these mechanics be quite powerful so that the Iroquois consistently grow relatively large like the Ottomans or France.

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

Something on this scale would be great! It's clear that you've got a fair bit of background knowledge on the subject. Just so I understand, are you saying that Totemism should be divided into four religions and then the sub-groups within those religions (Law of Peace, Medewiwin, etc.) would be akin to the schools of Islam mechanics-wise? As in, one set of modifiers and mechanics for being Totemist and then another set for following Medewiwin or Law of Peace? If so, I think that's pretty intriguing.

Also, I like the idea of the Law of Peace popping up and spreading later in the game. Even if the devs don't do this with Law of Peace specifically, I like how it would have the Americas evolving over time and make the mid-game different from the late game.

On the subject of the Iroquois, am I right in understanding that the Law of Peace in part formed the philosophical and spiritual framework for the Iroquois Confederacy? If so, perhaps this is where the Iroquois Confederacy mechanics can be - or at least Law of Peace could synch well with the Confederacy mechanics. I think it would be fun these mechanics be quite powerful so that the Iroquois consistently grow relatively large like the Ottomans or France.

My thought was actually that you would have eight different religions; just that some of them would use the same mechanics. Schools could work as well. I'm not wed to any particular setup.

As far as I understand it, the Law of Peace was part religion, part governing philosophy and part nationalism. It could certainly work into some kind of unique government mechanics, although haven't given that too much thought.

I had some thoughts on better mechanics for the Medicine Lodge religion that I outlined earlier. Instead of the Group 1 mechanics I outlined above, Medicine Lodge could use a system of sacred artifacts. This system would model importance of medicine bundles to the plains tribes as well as the many cultural exchanges that took place during the 18th and 19th century. Here's how it would work: You accumulate religion points that can use to buy a sacred artifact which gives some kind of bonus. You have slots for 3-4 sacred artifacts, but only stat out with access to 1-2. You gain access to additional artifacts by interacting with other nations or religion groups. For example, Blackfoot might start out with Bear Knives (Military Bonus) and Beaver Bundle (Trade Bonus). They migrate next to the Cheyenne who have Medicine Arrows (Man Arrows for a military bonus and Buffalo Arrows for a production bonus), and the Blackfoot can now buy their own medicine arrows. However, this is not a permanent ability. If Blackfoot migrates away from Cheyenne, they no longer have access to the medicine arrows, so if you get rid of one of your artifacts to make room for another, it may be gone for good.

 

[Ishmael_Dandalo]

As far as I understand it, the Law of Peace was part religion, part governing philosophy and part nationalism. It could certainly work into some kind of unique government mechanics, although haven't given that too much thought.

I had some thoughts on better mechanics for the Medicine Lodge religion that I outlined earlier. Instead of the Group 1 mechanics I outlined above, Medicine Lodge could use a system of sacred artifacts. This system would model importance of medicine bundles to the plains tribes as well as the many cultural exchanges that took place during the 18th and 19th century. Here's how it would work: You accumulate religion points that can use to buy a sacred artifact which gives some kind of bonus. You have slots for 3-4 sacred artifacts, but only stat out with access to 1-2. You gain access to additional artifacts by interacting with other nations or religion groups. For example, Blackfoot might start out with Bear Knives (Military Bonus) and Beaver Bundle (Trade Bonus). They migrate next to the Cheyenne who have Medicine Arrows (Man Arrows for a military bonus and Buffalo Arrows for a production bonus), and the Blackfoot can now buy their own medicine arrows. However, this is not a permanent ability. If Blackfoot migrates away from Cheyenne, they no longer have access to the medicine arrows, so if you get rid of one of your artifacts to make room for another, it may be gone for good.

I guess I'm not sure how the Iroquois government/religion would work either - still thinking about it.

I like your Medicine Lodge ideas. It seems like it would encourage a play style where you keep other tags alive in some form or another. That strikes me as an interesting dynamic as it could pair well with the Tribal Federations mechanic, particularly other changes made federations more relevant for longer, AND it could work well with the Steppe Horde tributary system if the Take to the Plains decision that I mentioned in the OP or something similar to make the Native Council to Horde transition more viable. These mechanics (or something similar) taken in concert could work together to give the Americas or at least the Great Plains area an overall different feel to Europe, which is something that I think would be absolutely vital to any patch or DLC revamping the Americas.

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

I guess I'm not sure how the Iroquois government/religion would work either - still thinking about it.

I like your Medicine Lodge ideas. It seems like it would encourage a play style where you keep other tags alive in some form or another. That strikes me as an interesting dynamic as it could pair well with the Tribal Federations mechanic, particularly other changes made federations more relevant for longer, AND it could work well with the Steppe Horde tributary system if the Take to the Plains decision that I mentioned in the OP or something similar to make the Native Council to Horde transition more viable. These mechanics (or something similar) taken in concert could work together to give the Americas or at least the Great Plains area an overall different feel to Europe, which is something that I think would be absolutely vital to any patch or DLC revamping the Americas.

The Native Council government type really needs to be broken up into two or three new types with government reforms or some kind of equivalent system and the option for which more advanced government to reform into based on the reform path you take. Perhaps @neondt or one of the other devs could weigh in if they're open to updating native councils. I know that they generally don't like to revisit paid content, but I think Conquest of Paradise is far enough in the past that the community will give them a pass here.

For the Iroquois specifically, they had a very organized hierarchy of tribes and clans all with certain privileges and responsibilities. So a faction system might work there. They could also get some kind of unique tribal adoption mechanics to reflect the way they were able to absorb groups the Susquehanna, Erie and Mahicans into their society.

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

I’d like to hear people’s opinion on adding the mound builder kingdoms to the game. As a lot of you probably know, the Ohio valley and the Southeastern US used to have many large and well organized city states; referred to today as the Hopewell and Mississippian cultures. None of these are present in EUIV. In their place we have a few of the tribes and tribal federations that formed from the remnants of the mound builder kingdoms (most of which collapsed in the 16th and 17th centuries). I’m not sure if that was a conscious design choice or just a lack of knowledge/interest. Either way, it is a huge omission.
Ideally, I think that the game should have tags to represent the major mound builder societies, along with a religion with a reform system similar to the Maya Nahua and Inti religions. After coming into contact with Europeans, a disaster along with some nasty events could model the introduction of European diseases. Miss-handling the disaster eventually turns you into a totemist, native council OPM.
However, adding a dozen or so Tribal Kingdoms to North America would mean both Natives and European colonizers wouldn’t be able to take over the continent as quickly. This is bound to annoy a lot of people. So would the change be overall good or bad for the community?
If anyone is interested, I can post some sources on the mound builders and expand on ideas for new tags, etc.

 

[neondt]

Perhaps @neondt or one of the other devs could weigh in if they're open to updating native councils. I know that they generally don't like to revisit paid content, but I think Conquest of Paradise is far enough in the past that the community will give them a pass here.

For the sake of making suggestions, feel free to think outside the box in terms of dlc locks. You never know what might find its way into the base game some day...

 

[BuchiTaton]

Other thing that could be added with a rework of Native "primitive" nations are cultural-related trade goods.

- Exotic Feathers
For almost all the cultures in the Americas and some in Africa and Southeast Asia feather represented more that ornament. Some times their use was reserved to specific elites. Their trade was also very valuable, with trade routes from Central America to Southwest USA and from the Amazon through the Andes to the arid pacific coast of South America.
http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home/viennas-mesoamerican-featherworks
https://hyperallergic.com/273305/plumage-of-the-saints-aztec-feather-art-in-the-age-of-colonialism/

- Sea Jewels
Perls, shells and coral had great symbolic and economic value, making them the trade good that moved land routes from the sea to the deep interior.

- Obsidian
Used for weapons, tools and art.

- Whales
Why is this not already on game?

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

For the sake of making suggestions, feel free to think outside the box in terms of dlc locks. You never know what might find its way into the base game some day...

I suppose that's as close to a yes as you're allowed to give.

So here is my general idea for updating Native Council mechanics:

Government Reforms: Native Councils will now have a government reform system like those that other governments got in Dharma. Some example reforms:
1- Basic societal organization (this will be important for how Native Council countries view each other)
A - Patrilineal clans
B - Matrilineal clans
C - No clan system
2 - How is the chief chosen?
A - Strict succession from a royal line
B - Council elects a chief from the royal family
C - Council elects a chief from several prominent families with hereditary rights in the tribe
D - Council can choose a person of high standing in the tribe
3 - How is the tribal council chosen
A - Small group of royal family, important religious and military leaders chosen by the chief
B - Hereditary leaders of the prominent clans/villages
C - Representatives from each clan/village are invited by the chief and his advisors
D - Each clan chooses their own representatives to the council

And there would be many more beyond that. Completing some number of tiers would allow you to reform your native council to a tribal government. Completing all of the tiers allows you to reform into a Monarchy, Republic, Theocracy or Steppe Horde (Prairie Horde?) depending on which reforms you have chosen.

Native Advancements: Along with the government reforms you would still have the Native Advancements which you purchase with monarch points. I’d recommend putting these in the same interface as the government reforms, but with a slightly different icons to set them apart. Different advancements will be unlocked at different tiers. Advancements will no longer be directly connected to reforming the government. Some native advancements would be requirements for certain government reforms, while some would just be nice to have stuff. I’ll put together a detailed list of government reforms and native advancements in a later post (and people can feel free to suggest ideas).

Federations: In the current system, the federation leader is chosen based on their prestige and diplomatic reputation. From what I've seen this tends to favor small inoffensive countries. I think the federation rankings should be updated to include military strength and (for the current federation leader) if the federation has recently won or lost any wars.
Tribes should be more selective about who they form federations with. Culture should matter and distance should be more important (hopefully this will make it less likely to get into a war with a tribe 15 empty provinces away)
It would also be possible for a federation leader to integrate junior partners if (1) The leader borders the junior partner (2) The leader has led the federation for some minimum amount of time (3) the junior has a high diplomatic opinion of the leader.
Finally, there needs to be a way to define federations in the history files

Migration: AI migration seems very random. You should add some tables in the common folder that define where a tribe will migrate. For example stay within a certain area or region, don't migrate to a lower dev province, etc.

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

Other thing that could be added with a rework of Native "primitive" nations are cultural-related trade goods.

- Exotic Feathers
For almost all the cultures in the Americas and some in Africa and Southeast Asia feather represented more that ornament. Some times their use was reserved to specific elites. Their trade was also very valuable, with trade routes from Central America to Southwest USA and from the Amazon through the Andes to the arid pacific coast of South America.
http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home/viennas-mesoamerican-featherworks
https://hyperallergic.com/273305/plumage-of-the-saints-aztec-feather-art-in-the-age-of-colonialism/

- Sea Jewels
Perls, shells and coral had great symbolic and economic value, making them the trade good that moved land routes from the sea to the deep interior.

- Obsidian
Used for weapons, tools and art.

- Whales
Why is this not already on game?

The sea jewels would be a nice addition given how important shell jewelry and shell money was to many of the North American tribes. Many Europeans used it in dealing with the natives as well. They had formal exchange rates and everything.

I think the reason whales aren't in the game is that the whaling industry didn't get going until the end of the EUIV period. And while there were some coastal tribes that hunted whales and dolphins, it was for food, not as a trade good. Whale meat apparently didn't keep very well. The Tsimshian, Haida and Wakashan tribes in the Pacific Northwest all hunted whales to some extent, but their trade was in things like otter pelts, preserved salmon, dentalium shells.