Omens, dreams, sacrifices, and other signs in the Ancient World

[BaronNoir]

Thereon Orestes seized the Dorian knife of tempered steel and cast from his shoulders his graceful buckled robe; then choosing Pylades to help him in his task, he made the servants withdraw, and catching the calf by the hoof, proceeded to lay bare its white flesh, with arm outstretched, and he flayed the hide quicker than a runner ever finishes the two laps of the horses' race-course; next he laid the belly open, and Aegisthus took the entrails in his hands and carefully examined them. Now the liver had no lobe, while the portal vein leading to the gall-bladder portended dangerous attack on him who was observing it. Dark grows Aegisthus' brow, but my master asks, "Why so despondent, good sir?" Said he, "I fear treachery from a stranger. Agamemnon's son of all men most I hate, and he hates my house." But Orestes cried, "What! fear treachery from an exile! thou the ruler of the city? Ho! take this Dorian knife away and bring me a Thessalian cleaver, that we by sacrificial feast may learn the will of heaven; let me cleave the breast-bone." And he took the axe and cut it through. Now Aegisthus was examining the entrails, separating them in his hands, and as he was bending down, thy brother rose on tiptoe and smote him on the spine, severing the bones of his back; and his body gave one convulsive shudder from head to foot and writhed in the death-agony.

(TLDR : a dead-on accurate (ZING) prophecy about Aegisthus getting OWNED by Orestes. Violent revenge had to be depicted using your imagination in -400 B.C Athens, without HBO budgets for fake blood and real tits.)

I took this basic example to show what I mean in this thread. Ancient Greeks obviously both believed that oracles and such were sacred and only fools would ignore them (it's obvious upon reading Plutarch that an ill omen was taken extremely seriously) but at the same time it was not like you would nudge a little Fate. (Both Plutarch and Thucyides at least thought post-facto that Nicias was a fool for waiting a full month because of an eclipse at the siege of Syracuse)

As depictions of ancient battles strongly imply that they kept doing sacrifices until they got an unfortunate sheep with the liver promising victory, what exactly was the point ? (Strategos ! We have 11 oxens guts saying we will get owned, but the entrails of the 12 show a narrow tactical victory ! )

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

The night the before the German army marched into Russia, a lightning bolt destroyed the flagpole outside Hitler's Berghof in Obersalzburg.

A bad omen quickly cleaned up and hidden from Adolph by Bormann, who quickly cleaned up and hid MANY things from Adolph.

 

[The-Doc]

As depictions of ancient battles strongly imply that they kept doing sacrifices until they got an unfortunate sheep with the liver promising victory, what exactly was the point ? (Strategos ! We have 11 oxens guts saying we will get owned, but the entrails of the 12 show a narrow tactical victory ! )

From what I've gathered it was the last sign given that mattered. Thus you delay and tell them to keep trying till it comes up positive.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

From what I've gathered it was the last sign given that mattered. Thus you delay and tell them to keep trying till it comes up positive.

Like Churchill and his daily astrological projections.

 

[BaronNoir]

It's obvious that the simple soldiers could get demoralized by ill omens (read : bamboozled by good omens by their leaders, Xenophon style) or that typically omens and oracles were vague enough so a smart leader could adapt it to the situation, but if it had been that obvious for the soldiers of the time, oracles would not have been so sought well into the roman times.

 

[Husein]

Thereon Orestes seized the Dorian knife of tempered steel and cast from his shoulders his graceful buckled robe; then choosing Pylades to help him in his task, he made the servants withdraw, and catching the calf by the hoof, proceeded to lay bare its white flesh, with arm outstretched, and he flayed the hide quicker than a runner ever finishes the two laps of the horses' race-course; next he laid the belly open, and Aegisthus took the entrails in his hands and carefully examined them. Now the liver had no lobe, while the portal vein leading to the gall-bladder portended dangerous attack on him who was observing it. Dark grows Aegisthus' brow, but my master asks, "Why so despondent, good sir?" Said he, "I fear treachery from a stranger. Agamemnon's son of all men most I hate, and he hates my house." But Orestes cried, "What! fear treachery from an exile! thou the ruler of the city? Ho! take this Dorian knife away and bring me a Thessalian cleaver, that we by sacrificial feast may learn the will of heaven; let me cleave the breast-bone." And he took the axe and cut it through. Now Aegisthus was examining the entrails, separating them in his hands, and as he was bending down, thy brother rose on tiptoe and smote him on the spine, severing the bones of his back; and his body gave one convulsive shudder from head to foot and writhed in the death-agony.

(TLDR : a dead-on accurate (ZING) prophecy about Aegisthus getting OWNED by Orestes. Violent revenge had to be depicted using your imagination in -400 B.C Athens, without HBO budgets for fake blood and real tits.)

I took this basic example to show what I mean in this thread. Ancient Greeks obviously both believed that oracles and such were sacred and only fools would ignore them (it's obvious upon reading Plutarch that an ill omen was taken extremely seriously) but at the same time it was not like you would nudge a little Fate. (Both Plutarch and Thucyides at least thought post-facto that Nicias was a fool for waiting a full month because of an eclipse at the siege of Syracuse)

As depictions of ancient battles strongly imply that they kept doing sacrifices until they got an unfortunate sheep with the liver promising victory, what exactly was the point ? (Strategos ! We have 11 oxens guts saying we will get owned, but the entrails of the 12 show a narrow tactical victory ! )

I'm a pagan so I'll try to explain.

Omen animals are a sacrifice to Gods whose judgment of you you can read from the resulting entrails. Those who can afford it can keep sacrificing till gods are appeared and give a positive portent. Its not a case of 12 animals show us getting owned but the last omen doesn't, its a case of Gods not being pleased by the previoua 12 but being pleased by the 13th. Like adding weights on a scale bit by bit till the scale pushes over to the side you desire.

 

[Yakman]

 

[BaronNoir]

The point however is that it was not mocked at all in Ancient times to listen to the headings of the Gods. Plutarch, commenting on people were naive in gullible in -400 B.C compared to his rational times...(he is talking about the eclipse that panicked Nicias)

The first man to put in writing the clearest and boldest of all doctrines about the changing phases of the moon was Anaxagoras. But he was no ancient authority, nor was his doctrine in high repute. It was still under seal of secrecy, and made its way slowly among a few only, who received it with a certain caution rather than with implicit confidence. Anaxagoras was with difficulty rescued from imprisonment by Pericles and Socrates, though he had nothing whatever to do with such matters, nevertheless lost his life because of philosophy.

 

[olm]

I remember that some Roman admiral threw some chickens overboard because they didn't eat (which was regarded as bad omen), and then soon afterwards he lost a battle against Carthagians.

 

[BaronNoir]

I remember that some Roman admiral threw some chickens overboard because they didn't eat (which was regarded as bad omen), and then soon afterwards he lost a battle against Carthagians.

Rationally, it could be said that such an act would have extremely demoralizing for the crews of the fleet not to mention the whole ''why the frack you offended the Gods ? Did you wanted to lose the battle ? '' (and/or that the chickens were like that time a Soviet general was shot for losing a field kitchen to the Finns-since usually losing a battle is not a reason for a trial...)

Also, while I'm not a specialist of poultry feeding habits, I would daresay that if you base good omens on a chicken eating the corn you give him, you will get very good omens most of the time.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

But she broke the Zero Year Curse.

So, The National Enquirer wins!

 

[JodelDiplom]

Thereon Orestes seized the Dorian knife of tempered steel and cast from his shoulders his graceful buckled robe; then choosing Pylades to help him in his task, he made the servants withdraw, and catching the calf by the hoof, proceeded to lay bare its white flesh, with arm outstretched, and he flayed the hide quicker than a runner ever finishes the two laps of the horses' race-course; next he laid the belly open, and Aegisthus took the entrails in his hands and carefully examined them. Now the liver had no lobe, while the portal vein leading to the gall-bladder portended dangerous attack on him who was observing it. Dark grows Aegisthus' brow, but my master asks, "Why so despondent, good sir?" Said he, "I fear treachery from a stranger. Agamemnon's son of all men most I hate, and he hates my house." But Orestes cried, "What! fear treachery from an exile! thou the ruler of the city? Ho! take this Dorian knife away and bring me a Thessalian cleaver, that we by sacrificial feast may learn the will of heaven; let me cleave the breast-bone." And he took the axe and cut it through. Now Aegisthus was examining the entrails, separating them in his hands, and as he was bending down, thy brother rose on tiptoe and smote him on the spine, severing the bones of his back; and his body gave one convulsive shudder from head to foot and writhed in the death-agony.

(TLDR : a dead-on accurate (ZING) prophecy about Aegisthus getting OWNED by Orestes. Violent revenge had to be depicted using your imagination in -400 B.C Athens, without HBO budgets for fake blood and real tits.)

I took this basic example to show what I mean in this thread. Ancient Greeks obviously both believed that oracles and such were sacred and only fools would ignore them (it's obvious upon reading Plutarch that an ill omen was taken extremely seriously) but at the same time it was not like you would nudge a little Fate. (Both Plutarch and Thucyides at least thought post-facto that Nicias was a fool for waiting a full month because of an eclipse at the siege of Syracuse)

As depictions of ancient battles strongly imply that they kept doing sacrifices until they got an unfortunate sheep with the liver promising victory, what exactly was the point ? (Strategos ! We have 11 oxens guts saying we will get owned, but the entrails of the 12 show a narrow tactical victory ! )

Of relevant

 

[Yakman]

But she broke the Zero Year Curse.

So, The National Enquirer wins!

CURSE OF TECUMSEH DEFEATED.

 

[demanvanwezel]

bad omens managed to get caesar victory over the germans who were invading gaul

the germans had taken in a good tactical position on the heights over the romans but their priests told them that victory was currently impossible

caesar learned about this from captured scouts and thus marched his army onto the high ground which the germans occupied while the germans moved out of the way to avoid pitched battle

and so the romans could engage the germans on equal ground and defeat them

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

bad omens managed to get caesar victory over the germans who were invading gaul

the germans had taken in a good tactical position on the heights over the romans but their priests told them that victory was currently impossible

caesar learned about this from captured scouts and thus marched his army onto the high ground which the germans occupied while the germans moved out of the way to avoid pitched battle

and so the romans could engage the germans on equal ground and defeat them

Bad omens surround Caesar's journey to the Senate on the Ides of March as well.

 

[Zinegata]

As depictions of ancient battles strongly imply that they kept doing sacrifices until they got an unfortunate sheep with the liver promising victory, what exactly was the point ? (Strategos ! We have 11 oxens guts saying we will get owned, but the entrails of the 12 show a narrow tactical victory ! )

Pumping up the morale of a lot of scared guys, especially when one considers that many of these soldiers may not necessarily be full-time professionals. Human beings are frankly not particularly inclined to commit murder especially if they are at risk of being killed in return unless they have a clear numbers advantage; in which case there probably won't be a battle because the weaker side usually avoids a fight under such unfavorable conditions.

That's why so much time, literature, and effort is spent training and conditioning soldiers to be killers to begin with. Barring exceptional training and conditioning, battles don't happen.

Even modern soldiers are deeply superstitious because of the fears and stresses of combat. For instance getting the Charms candy found in MREs is generally seen as a bad omen by the US Army and Marines, especially if you eat it.

Frankly though - from a psychological standpoint the superstitions are basically the brain's deranged attempts to rationalize and control the fear of being in combat - and combat is primarily defined as being an environment of absolute chaos sprinkled with danger where each individual has very little control on the final outcome. Throughout the battle the soldiers aren't going to be thinking straight while controlling their terror/confusion and will simply fall back on the idea that the 12th set of entrails guaranteed victory; whereas losing the battle will have the survivors blaming the general for going to battle with eleven bad entrails to begin with rather than any tactical mistakes the general committed.

 

[Geriander]

I’m a bit sceptical of recorded bad omens prior to lost battles. At least in Roman histories it tends to come across as an excuse for losing invented after the fact. Sort of: ”Of course the superior Roman soldier would have beaten those stupid barbarians but our foolish general angered the gods by ignoring the omens”.

 

[demanvanwezel]

I’m a bit sceptical of recorded bad omens prior to lost battles. At least in Roman histories it tends to come across as an excuse for losing invented after the fact. Sort of: ”Of course the superior Roman soldier would have beaten those stupid barbarians but our foolish general angered the gods by ignoring the omens”.

also there are so many omens that they became a self-fullfilling profecy

lose the battle: "chicken's liver was black, bad omen"
win the battle: "saw an eagle catching a bird, good omen"

while both of those things and many more that could be constructed as omens all happened

same with public figures, a woman yells at crassus to not go to parthia, if crassus had won there then she would have been known as just another mad woman instead of having received a divine vision

 

[Zinegata]

I’m a bit sceptical of recorded bad omens prior to lost battles. At least in Roman histories it tends to come across as an excuse for losing invented after the fact. Sort of: ”Of course the superior Roman soldier would have beaten those stupid barbarians but our foolish general angered the gods by ignoring the omens”.

Humans, particularly ones in charge of leading large groups of other humans, have always been fond of the concept of scapegoatism.