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Oct 22, 2001
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An incident the other night highlights a problem that occurs now and then.

Some of the players in our community prefer the war aspect of the game. Some even claim they in their opinion the game essentially is a war game.

Nothing wrong with that. Especially not if other people knows about it and can avoid them if they prefer, as they can avoid, if they want, those who are the opposite of them (i.e. the "dull" peaceful players like myself) ;) .

What can be a problem is if such a player agrees to sub an evening. For him to sub a whole session without being in war can be a very dull evening, "he must have a war" and then he proceeds to seek one out or perhaps he asks for permission to leave, or even worse perhaps leaves anyhow.

In a session a few weeks ago one of these warriors left a session midway through, after finding out the nation he subbed had NAPs with most of his neighbours for the session. As I remember he left in order, with new subs available so no big harm.

No, the more important case is the one I referred to initially: when the sub plays but cannot sit still. What happened was that an experienced and skilled player subbing for Venice DOWed and then lost heavily against Spain. He had before he DOWed been informed by his only potential ally that no help would be forthcoming. But the sub still DOWed. Well, he actually left before peace was made, another sub had to sign the peace treaty handing over some 5 of her 14 prvinces besides losing almost her entire fleet and having her army of some 80k being ghosted in Venice and Friuli (new map). A total catastrophe. The perm and his friends had plans to handle the precarious situation of Venice. The sub was informed in a general sense about these plans but still decided to go for it now and alone instead of letting the perm select the appropriate moment for little Venice to DOW mighty Spain. I believe merely because he thought it was dull to economise. The alternative, perhaps less flattering for him, is that he severely misjudged the relative strength and the diplomatic position in the game.

But for the perm Venice this was a catastrophe. And that is the important thing. This is not what he expected to happen in a game he was subbed.

I believe any sub should play cautiously. I hope when other members of the community reads this post they tell themselves that the next time they sub they will not engage in similar adventures like the one this sub did.

I do hope our current Venice won't give up because of what happened and quit the game but that he instead proves himself to be a fierce warrior, made of steel.
 
I dislike subbing in situations where my hands are essentially tied. I won't sub a game where the GM declares solemnly that that the sub must stay out of war and not conduct any diplomacy/etc. Quite frankly, unless the perm takes the time to either show up or find a suitable replacement, he has no reasonable right to expect that everything go peacefully or as well as it would have under his stewardship. Hell, half the time I see subs being used as passive punching bags that get steamrolled by a well-prepared perm.

That being said, I don't think any sub should purposefully wreck a country. But not to seize an opportunity is just stupid. Losing a war and not prosecuting it to its very end (i.e. a peace treaty) is just childish.

Regardless of his motivations, I support the sub's right to DOW. Maybe he thought he could win for whatever reason. The GM equally had the right to stop the game upon the DOW and eject the sub if he so saw fit, but clearly that did not happen. And the rest of Europe is at fault too for not being alarmed and intervening upon a 5 province peace certain to shift the balance of power. The only lesson here is that the perm should have taken the time to find a reliable sub and transmit instructions to him.
 
If there is perm instructions, then the sub should follow at the letter. There I think there is no disagreement possible.

Now, if there is not perm instructions, then the sub is relatively free. But his chief aim is, and always should be, not wreck country. He can DOW (since he can be DOWed after all), but risky moves are for permanents, not subs. So Venice against Spain? without support? That is always a risky move, with potential large consequences, so is up to the perm to decide. Basically, you should live with your decisions. The sub do not, so he should try to not limit alternatives for the permanent at least.
 
And yes, in this game SPA owned SPA proper and a little more than 50% of Italy (but almost nothing in America) while Venice owned 15 provinces in all, a little less than 50% of Italy and a few islands in the Med. I guess the MP of SPA was around 50% higher than that of Venice and SPA's income was 3 times as big or so.

My guess is that Venice gambled on winning at sea (for quite some years the Spanish player repeatedly asked the French for MA but then he said: never mind, I won that last naval battle). So the sub lost his gamble at sea and after that he was cooked.

Probably SPA simply outbuild Venice in the galley race, since they had so much more money, that was not difficult.
---------

In this session the perm left in the middle of the session and then the sub came in from nowhere. There were no instructions AFAIK.
 
Zeitgeist said:
Regardless of his motivations, I support the sub's right to DOW. Maybe he thought he could win for whatever reason.

Yes, maybe he did. But if so, how could he believe that? He is after all an experienced and skilled player :confused:

There were no random leaders in this game and Venice probably had Moncenigo, 4-2-3-0, while SPA probably had Spinola 3-5-4-1 and Fernando de Austria 4-3-3-1 and de Feria, 4-3-3-0 (but I must confess, I never saw Spinola in action) and a 3-3-3 admiral, Venice had no admirals.
 
I agree with Daniel and Arco, when there are instructions, then the sub should follow them AND they should play to have fun. BUT subs tend to forget that if they screw up, they will not have to pick up the pieces. Since that is so, the perm is screwed and looses the will to play, it happened to me. It is not fun.

So when I sub, I play longterm, even if I will only be there one time, I play longterm. But very few subs do that, except from Daniel.
 
How i see it, the sub should always play like it was his or her own nation. This often means that you play both sensibly and for fun. A minor restraint should lie in that if the sub's definition of a good nation means a complete overhaul of the perm's policies, then the sub should either quit (not in a huff) or ghost the nation.
There is always a risk when the permanent player is absent and this should also be recognized by him. Quitting because of bad sub play is absolutely not a just cause.
 
Lurken said:
I agree with Daniel and Arco, when there are instructions, then the sub should follow them AND they should play to have fun. BUT subs tend to forget that if they screw up, they will not have to pick up the pieces. Since that is so, the perm is screwed and looses the will to play, it happened to me. It is not fun.

So when I sub, I play longterm, even if I will only be there one time, I play longterm. But very few subs do that, except from Daniel.
Totally agreeing on this. When subbing, wishes/instructions are important. But regardless of this, a player should always play longterm.

It's really quite simple. Who likes his country to be screwed by a one-time player? Not even the one-time player if he was in the perms situation. So remember all:

Thou shald not do to others what thou does not what to happen to thyself.
 
Such an EU2 "culture" should be gathered it here. I'm sure you guys took a vnetter, and it's very obvious they don't have such "culture" as you proclaim here. They'll keep playing for fun until they join this forum.

I would have suggested to make Venice offlimits if a known sub hadn't been found.

A sub (a known one) would sure have respected both sides, fun and viability.
 
Well that also won't fly, you can't totally restrict all the other nations or plans they have made based on the perm being absent. It's a shame but I feel a price you must be willing to take that "things" do happen when your not around.

To many times I have had people whine that I attacked them because they were absent ... situations where the war was in planning for the last 2 sessions or so or a major event/leader made it sensible to attack then. If thats the case, I think the perm just has to live with it.
 
This thread smells more like a rant about a specififc incident than anything more.

If sub has no instructions they can do what they like. Its getting harder and harder to find subs these days so i guess you cant be picky.
 
I find the biggest problem i've had with subbing is lack of instruction from the absent perm. In fact, in all the games i've subbed (not that many admittedly), i've never had the luxury of nice instructions from the perm. Sure, i often get general advice as to who my allies are and such, but not much else in terms of plans to follow...

So don't blame the sub in every situation, sometimes he has no information to base his decisions on, outside of the immediate game situation (granted, this example was a good one of the sub making a crazy move and getting spanked).
 
cheech said:
If sub has no instructions they can do what they like. Its getting harder and harder to find subs these days so i guess you cant be picky.

Agreed. Often when I sub I ask: "do I have any deals?", if then no one tells me them, I play as *I* want, since I play to have fun.
Indeed, if I sub a nation and I am told I can't do anything but trade, I will ghost the country and get myself a book.

If the perm can't play and fails to get himself a sub that he instructs correctly, well, then he should be glad he gets a sub all in all.
 
FAL said:
Agreed. Often when I sub I ask: "do I have any deals?", if then no one tells me them, I play as *I* want, since I play to have fun.
Indeed, if I sub a nation and I am told I can't do anything but trade, I will ghost the country and get myself a book.

If the perm can't play and fails to get himself a sub that he instructs correctly, well, then he should be glad he gets a sub all in all.

As you know from my instructions for last week I give nicely detailed instructions. Much better of course when subs aren't needed, but we don't usually get a choice.
 
Rinak said:
As you know from my instructions for last week I give nicely detailed instructions. Much better of course when subs aren't needed, but we don't usually get a choice.

Well, yes, those instructions were good, those weren't the problem, the sub crashing out not to be seen again that evening was another matter ...
 
If no instructions are given then the sub should be free to do what he feels best in doing for the good of the country.

In this case I subbed and believed I stood a good chance of winning as I thought that Spain was subbed by a relative newbie, although somone with the name of Bob must be skilled, and indeed he was :p . And I am sorry for leaving halfway through the session but it cannot be helped.

But Daniel, I must remind you that you said that France was Venice's best friend. I then saw a chance to attack Spain and asked you
"Would me attacking Spain now muck up any long term plans for Venice?" you said "Of course not, go ahead".
 
Dr Bob said:
But Daniel, I must remind you that you said that France was Venice's best friend. I then saw a chance to attack Spain and asked you
"Would me attacking Spain now muck up any long term plans for Venice?" you said "Of course not, go ahead".

Gold.
 
I had clearly described to Bob that this was not the time to attack and that better chances would come the next session (one that Bob obviously was not going to play). But as all of you say: if he wants to attack I cannot stop it since he had no instructions from the perm to the contrary, so go ahead. Besides, I do not remember this exact question and my answer. I strongly doubt this was the exact conversation.

Note that only the result of the war, not the DOW, spoils some of Venice chances.
 
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