Opening up the Russian can of worms (again)

[Demetrios]

Hey all,

I know that this has been discussed to death, but I've recently been giving some thought to the borders between the various Russian and Khanate states. I've decided to makes some suggestions and see what everyone thinks of them.

1. Ryazan province is in the wrong place. Ryazan province is due east of Moscow, but in reality the city is to the southeast of the Russian capital. This is causing all sorts of problems in the IGC, not the least of which is the fact that Ryazan (the country) is too big and too powerful in comparison to its actual state in 1492. The only solution I can think of is pretty radical: we need to ignore the name of Ryazan province and move Ryazan city to another location. Ryazan in the IGC should consist only of Lipetsk province; Ryazan province's city should be renamed Nizhniy Novgorod and be given to Russia.

2. A one-province Kazan is unrealistic. Kazan should not only consist of Kazan province, but should also include Tambow, Saratov, Kujbyschew, and Samara. The city of Samara should be in Kujbyschew province (Samara and Kujbyschew are the same city; it was odd for the designers to use the names for two separate provinces) while Samara province's city should be Ufa.

3. Poland-Lithuania never got near the Volga historically, but in the IGC they actually border on it; this often causes bottleneck problems for Russia, espeically if one of their allies or enemies takes either Kujbyschew, Samara, or both (I've seen Denmark do this on numerous occassions). From what I have seen in several atlases, Crimea should own Donetsk and Bogutjar. Another possibility is that those two provinces (especially Bogutjar) should go unclaimed and represent the "Wild Fields" that formed a buffer between the steppe nations and Russia.

4. Kalmuk and Kouban should definitely start the game as part of no nation. The Kouban region was the home of the fierce Circassians, who vigorously defended their independence right down to the 19th century. Kouban should be a neutral province with a high population and a very high native hostility.

 

[BiB]

IIRC unclaimed provinces i Europe could make for weird results.

 

[Doomdark]

Demetrios,

I would like to oblige you, but I think that we should stick to solutions where the province names match the historical region, no matter the geographic inaccuracy. However, the size of Ryazan contra Kazan still bothers me a lot.

 

[unmerged(1700)]

Demetrios, your post got me thinking. I agree with you on the sizes and locations of Ryazan and Kyazan and the fact that EU contains some geographical mistakes when it comes to Russia.

I stumbled upon them before when I was designing the Seven Years War scenario, I actually spent more time correcting the problems with Russia than working on the conflict itself. It even went as far as me mailing the corrected version of 1773.inc to Greven(by his demand).

This is also a problem I'm going to face when I'll be making the new Byzantine scenario. Since its going to start in 1448, there should be many territorial differences.

 

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by Doomdark
Demetrios,

I would like to oblige you, but I think that we should stick to solutions where the province names match the historical region, no matter the geographic inaccuracy. However, the size of Ryazan contra Kazan still bothers me a lot.

I understand. I wouldn't bring this up except for the fact that Ryazan province is so badly mispaced and it makes a big difference in how the game is played in the area. There are plenty of misplaced provinces in EU, but this one is probably one of the worst. That is why I said it would be a radical change; unfortunately I can't think of an alternative way of correctly protraying the borders of Ryazan (except for maybe giving it Vorones province as well as Lipetsk)

On further review, I've changed my mind on some of the other borders I mentioned. I made a copy of the 1493 map in the Times Atlas of European History (which, in my opinion, is the most accruate general historical atlas of Europe I've seen). Mainly, it would seem to indicate the the Golden Horde should have Donetsk, Bogutjar, and Kalmuk provinces, as well as the northernmost of the provinces now owned by Crimea (whose name escapes me at the moment). Kouban should definitely be unclaimed, if this is possible. Do unclaime provinces in Europe really do cause problems?

 

[unmerged(1700)]

Demetrios, can you post a link to that atlas or upload the one you downloaded?

 

[BiB]

That'd be great if possible.

 

[Demetrios]

I made a black-and-white photocopy of the page at the library. I'd have to give it to my brother to scan and then upload it. Even then I would have doubts to its quality (the copy is pretty murky in spots already). I can do my best to describe to you the borders in question by using reference points - there are plenty of rivers and a good amount of cities on the map - and by making educated guesses elsewhere.

 

[BiB]

Those can be hard to put on I have some of those too and a very nice historical atlas and stuff but putting it online is a totally different matter