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egroegdraw

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Aug 6, 2010
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I would like to see the BB system done away with completely. It's just an artificial cap on the player's expansion. The game needs to cap player expansion with realistic mechanisms and well played AI controlled dynasties. BB is just lazy programming in my estimation.

Hopefully with a more challenging AI in CK2 we could have a more realistic system which reflects how different parties would react differently to a dynasty's or a kingdom's agression. If I'm the King of Georgia and manage to turn back the Seljuk tide and save the kingdom along with my vassals lands, I can hardly see why the Prince of Tao and Abghazia would be upset and led to rebel by that.

Characters would be more likely to take a positive view of agression towards characters, dynasties, or realms with which he/she has negative relations (modified by how negative those relations are) and vice versa. This implies that the game could keep track of feuds or alliances between families which would create more interesting gameplay and a framework to help stabilize a realm.

If I've married into the Rurikovich's and fought their enemies for two hundred years I ought to have some reasonable assurance that if I give them land in my realm they'll be loyal and faithful stewards of that land and not be just as likely to be led into rebellion by the random number generator gods as anyone else. Betrayals should still be able to happen obviously but it should be an event (not an event file but a kind of BIG DEAL) and far more rare.

Interpersonal relations could still be goverened by traits but ought to also be affected by the interdynastic relations (i.e. this guy has conflicting traits but I'm more willing to put up with his shit because he's family). The base level of relations between certain characters should be affected by the overall relationship between the dynasties.

If the Dunkelds and de Normandies have fought each other for centuries, it ought to take more than a handful of traits in common to make characters from those dynasties to like one another.

Exceptions could be made for characters that have rebelled against their family. Perhaps the interdynastic relationship modifier would be increased or decreased based on how loyal a character is to his family or dynasty with things weighted a lot more towards loyalty than they are now.

[/wall of text and unrealistic pie in the sky wishes]
 
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What I'm proposing would make strategic marriages a much bigger part of the game. A marriage between feuding clans might help stabilize relations but even entering into negotiations like that would require a highly skilled diplomat (which should be a far scarcer commidity than in CK1).
 
I didn't like the original badboy sytem in CK either.

For exampel I was playing a Byzantine prince who became emperor after the turks already took out most of the empire( including the capital)

After a very sucsesfull war I managed to take back a lot of provinces from the turks but then I notice...I am considered one of the most evil person on the earth, everybody, including my vassals whom I just gave new land, hate me for taking back the land that is rightfully mine...
 
I didn't like the original badboy sytem in CK either.

For exampel I was playing a Byzantine prince who became emperor after the turks already took out most of the empire( including the capital)

After a very sucsesfull war I managed to take back a lot of provinces from the turks but then I notice...I am considered one of the most evil person on the earth, everybody, including my vassals whom I just gave new land, hate me for taking back the land that is rightfully mine...

Mostly that means they fear you as the a conquer that will most likely attempt to steal their ancestral homelands, and burn their wives...
 
Wasn0t it already said that BB will not be in CK2?
 
Yes, currently infamy is more AI thing than game mechanic. If AI can't do anything with you it looses the point. It can, however, create realistic alliances versus agressor but right now I think EU3 AI can see if a big country is hated by everyone and joyfully joins the beating. So the infamy in CK shuld be something else. In CK1 it lowered vassal loyalty - good! Everybody needs vassals and you shouldn't be too bad boy so vassals could claim you are not worthy of ruling. Honest and charitable character should hate infamous ruler. And perhaps clergy and knights in cities.
 
I think the BB system just needs to be reworked not scrapped or the AI will honestly be oblivious to your exspansions.

Modifiers could work. Heres a rough example of what im thinking bout. (numbers really mean nothing but an example). To reduce calculations all BB is calculated for highest ruler of kingdom, with all others being based from his BB calculation.

AI Christian Rulers vrs Your Actions

Taking a provience 1 BB
if christian provance x2
if christian without claim x3
if arab provance x0.75
if arab provance while crusading x0.4
if your lower title then defeated side x1.5
if a vassile of your realm x3
anyone your married to will have a /2 modifier (rulers immediate families only)
anyone your have alliance with will have a /4

AI Arab Rulers vrs Your Actions

Taking a provience 1 BB
if christian provance x0.75
if christian without claim x0.75
if arab provance x2
if arab provance while crusading x3
if your lower title then defeated side x1.5
if a vassile of your realm x1.5
anyone your have alliance with will have a /2

Would also like to see some sort of modifier for holy cities and kingdom range aswell but not sure how to represent those.
 
Yeh i have to admit I frequently edit my BB as its so broken.

I clear out a load of Pagans and people hate me for it ?! Sure fine, the Pagans dont, and i can maybe understand a little jealousy at my new shiney lands but some Monarch on the other side of the map and or my bishopric getting angry at me ??
PFffft


I think the OP sums up how bad BB is quiet well, but again I thought i read somewhere that was gonna be over hauled anyways ?
 
Yeh i have to admit I frequently edit my BB as its so broken ?

Why do people so quickly say that something is broken when they don't like it.

The BB system in CK1 works exactly as Paradox wants it to work, there is nothing 'broken' about it. And there are plenty of ways in CK1 to expand without getting into troubles with your vassals.

Also your BB has no effect on any characters but your vassals in CK, other monarchs or bishops outside your realm don't care at all about it.

Could there be another system then the one used in CK1 ? Yes, but please stop this 'it's broken' stuff.
 
"[/wall of text and unrealistic pie in the sky wishes] "


this is kinda rude

It was just some self deprecating humor. I'm generally my own worst critic. BB may not be broken in that it WAD but it's a hamfisted and unejoyable game mechanic to me. If character relations were more realistically modeled the game would not need it.
 
Why do people so quickly say that something is broken when they don't like it.

The BB system in CK1 works exactly as Paradox wants it to work, there is nothing 'broken' about it. And there are plenty of ways in CK1 to expand without getting into troubles with your vassals.

Also your BB has no effect on any characters but your vassals in CK, other monarchs or bishops outside your realm don't care at all about it.

Could there be another system then the one used in CK1 ? Yes, but please stop this 'it's broken' stuff.

I don't think he meant it was broken as in not functioning as designed but rather not a very good design choice.:D

But your last line makes a great point. But CK was half a decade ago (2004 right?) So seeing as there have been advances in P'Dox's pool of ideas I think we may get somthing innovative. Even if it is just a re-worked bad baoy system.

For the Byzantine situation there is a "reconquest" casus Belli in HTTT. So assuming a similar system is put into this game I believe we will see it so your BB isn't killing your empire, we will leave that to the Turks and events!:p

Badboy itself is actually a good idea. The reason being if I am King of England and I see Castille or even Russia blobbing up I might get concerned. Now seeing as I have hindsight I'd actually like to see a Russian blob rather than small principalities.

Now as for vassals getting ticked off I believe the Liege-Vassal interactions does need to be completly reworked.

Bad boy should play into it but not as much. Vassals should be more weary of infringments on Feudal rights or personal relations. What do I mean by this?
If I start revoking titles, whether thta vassal agrees or not, should give every vassal a loyalty hit. The vassal duty should also play a larger role, seeing as I always maxed out this slider with no real downside.

As for personal relations I'd like to see traits play a larger role, as well as dynastic feuds so that we get more "personal" rebellions and "personal" wars rather than random, "You are conquering too much land wars." Especially when I just granted them four more counties and a ducal title.

So essentially Bad Boy should effect FOREIGN relations rather than vassals.
 
What if they brought the prominence value across from Rome? Characters above a certain prominence threshold would have the possibility of 'enhanced relations' with every other character in the same bracket within that court and in vassal courts. Characters with extremely high prominence would be dealing on a European scale - as well as with all subordinates above the base prominence threshold within their kingdom. Sort of like a personal GP system.
 
Also your BB has no effect on any characters but your vassals in CK, other monarchs or bishops outside your realm don't care at all about it.
That's why its broken.
But your last line makes a great point. But CK was half a decade ago (2004 right?) So seeing as there have been advances in P'Dox's pool of ideas I think we may get somthing innovative. Even if it is just a re-worked bad baoy system.

So essentially Bad Boy should effect FOREIGN relations rather than vassals.
Actually there should be seperate BB system for vassals. The current BB system in most Paradox games works well for foreign relations, but there should be a parallel one that is based on your domestic policy to reflect the ability to remember that you tried forced 2 of your vassals to give up their titles.

That doesn't have any real impact on how the rest of the word (outside maybe the papacy) sees you, but it should have long-term effects on how the rest of your vassals see you.
 
Well this is what Paradox said at the presentation.

The game is mainly based on relationships between characters, whether between courtiers, among courtiers and nobles, or between lords. These are particularly affected when Lord started a war without justification. It's why Crusader Kings uses a system of justification of war especially when one claims a title, or if he wishes to convert an area to the different culture or religion. There will be, however, no a priori notion of badboy or Infamy in Crusader Kings II.