"Perceived fairness of current treaties" Modifier

[DJseanums]

Just wanted to know if this was working as intended and if I am just dumb. Here's my current situation/

---- I receive an alliance opportunity from my pro-France lobby. Excellent! The opportunity now makes an alliance only -18 reasons for acceptance. However, the treaty has -50 reasons from "perceived fairness of current treaties". I assume this is from already having a treaty with France? So, I try to renegotiate my current treaty to include the alliance, but the -50 reasons are still apart of the treaty that I am trying to renegotiate thus making the old treaty negative for fairness of said treaty! Treaty-ception! I cannot get myself out of the old treaty as there are still 22 years left and I cannot negotiate any new treaties making it nigh impossible to accomplish what used to be a real gem of an alliance opportunity at only -18.

Can somebody explain to me what I'm clearly not getting? I feel like while treaties were a bit cheesy before, the concept as a whole was nice and fluid, Now it seems most of the options might as well be grayed out for how lopsided toward the AI they are. IDK hotfix is fresh so I'm jst gonna assume i'm stupid here lol : D

 

[Cymsdale]

So basically "We're unwilling to renegotiate this treaty because it's currently unfair to us" ?

 

[Zander]

The modifier as it presently exists is extremely dumb. I assume it's an attempt to make the AI harder to take advantage of, but instead it has the following results:
- As far as I've seen, literally every treaty gets this modifier, even ones the AI asked for one day before.
- Renegotiating gets this modifier, EVEN IF YOU REMOVE ALL CONDITIONS of the previous treaty.
- As a consequence, you should absolutely NEVER try to make a treaty with a nation where you already have one. You are ALWAYS better off withdrawing from the old treaty first, and starting fresh.


While we're on the subject, has anyone else noticed that it's no longer possible to upgrade from Defensive Pact to Alliance? It's literally not an option, which means you can (hypothetically) form an Alliance with any nation on Earth except one you have a Defensive Pact with.

 

[Silens]

In enjoyed the game immensely before the latest patch. The AI was willing to enter treaties, you could offer things and get other stuff in return. Except in some cases, where the AI just broke some treaties, diplomacy became actually fun. Sure, some people could exploit it, so by all means, investigate how they do it, and then implement workable solutions for it.

But this? Punish the many in such a heavy-handed manner, just to straighten out the few? This new modifier... I can't even give the AI free money in return for nothing! "Perceived unfairness", like, really? I want to give you 5k each week and you think it's unfair to you? Even between GPs you can't have any treaties that are mutually beneficial, you have to make them crazily lopsided to get the AI to agree.

And it's not just the new modifiers. It's also that the AI is now pretty antagonizing overall. Even when relations are cordial (30+), the AI is constantly either wary, or straight up hostile, so most of the time no treaties are possible at all. I can't make treaties to improve relations, and the additional heavy penalties from the hostile stance make it reject even long lists of free stuff.

Then, when the AI goes ahead and does offer a rare treaty, it's always one-sided demands with nothing for it.

Needless to say, the new balance really went overboard in the opposite direction. Treaties are such a great feature. Took just a week to bring it down to near uselessness, reducing diplomacy to its questionable state from before the expansion. 1.19.3 really feels like a major step backwards.

 

[DJseanums]

The modifier as it presently exists is extremely dumb. I assume it's an attempt to make the AI harder to take advantage of, but instead it has the following results:
- As far as I've seen, literally every treaty gets this modifier, even ones the AI asked for one day before.
- Renegotiating gets this modifier, EVEN IF YOU REMOVE ALL CONDITIONS of the previous treaty.
- As a consequence, you should absolutely NEVER try to make a treaty with a nation where you already have one. You are ALWAYS better off withdrawing from the old treaty first, and starting fresh.


While we're on the subject, has anyone else noticed that it's no longer possible to upgrade from Defensive Pact to Alliance? It's literally not an option, which means you can (hypothetically) form an Alliance with any nation on Earth except one you have a Defensive Pact with.

Ah ok so I'm not crazy. I really thought that I was screwing something up on the renegotiation screen. Hmm I hope this gets changed.

 

[Teutonizer]

And it's not just the new modifiers. It's also that the AI is now pretty antagonizing overall. Even when relations are cordial (30+), the AI is constantly either wary, or straight up hostile, so most of the time no treaties are possible at all. I can't make treaties to improve relations, and the additional heavy penalties from the hostile stance make it reject even long lists of free stuff.

Don't get me started on this. On 1.9.2 I was playing peaceful Spain game, getting people into my bloc by building them up with my companies and investments. In 1.9.3? It's straight up back to the war most of the time. Hell, the old save had half of my block turning 'wary' and I can't even subject most of them without others leaving the bloc because of how cohesion works with Sovereign Empire subjugation. (really, 90% cohesion hit for protectorating something like Haiti? You must be jesting)

 

[z3rO_]

Yea, I hope this is a band-aid solution. Its not like the system even had many truly cheesy things - being able to renegotiate debt and embassy were there, but got fixed. Law Enactment was slightly nerfed, but that is fine, it still works for its intended purpose. I would even say that the system is still decent. However...

I can't have more then one treaty with a country, so it is factually detrimental to make offers for relations. It is once again easier to get Bankrolls as Majors despite them explicitly not needing them.

Meanwhile, small regional powers are still okay with giving you more then half of their income for an obligation and a pat on the head.

I do, however, want to note that the diplomatic catalyst system is, likely, partially responsible for this. You can have good relations with a country for YEARS, get no positive diplomatic catalysts, then get 1 infamy, trigger a negative diplomatic catalyst that triggers worsening attitude and a negative lobby - you can forget about dealing with that country after that.

Also, I think that we need something that codifies how much an obligation is worth, and a button to equalise a treaty when you offer something.

EDIT: I just realised that AI when offers you treaties, it only considers what it wants, but not what YOU want. Except it has no idea to know what you want. Perhaps an treaty interest thingy?

 

[Wizzington]

This is not working as intended no. I will sort it out.

 

[PDX_Pelly]

(If you have saves please make a bug report with a save attached)

 

[tapewormlondon]

This is not working as intended no. I will sort it out.

Thanks Wiz. Will roll back to the previous patch for now

 

[DJseanums]

This is not working as intended no. I will sort it out.

Ty Wiz!

 

[Senjai]

Hey, I mostly talk in discord but for those who need it, you can workaround this.

Mostly the bug is just this
" Renegotiating gets this modifier, EVEN IF YOU REMOVE ALL CONDITIONS of the previous treaty."

Worst case, you have to withdraw from the treaty to remake it. The actual idea behind this modifier I think makes sense though. E.g. I get treaty trade from a nation that gives me a ton of surplus goods, but they're now at a servere deficit, they wont withdraw because we had a 25 year commitment, but they'd be unlikely to do more with me until I fix the old treaty for them. That makes sense. It's just the recalculation of this modifier that was / is borked and needs to be fixed IMO.

 

[Wizzington]

This is now fixed internally. We're going to try and get a patch out tomorrow, though that patch will likely *only* contain this fix to avoid introducing new issues before the weekend.

 

[Zander]

Oh, also - if you use an Obligation to try to get a treaty approved, and the other party refuses, your Obligation still vanishes.

"I know you owe us a massive debt for our earlier help. Would you consider giving us $5 in exchange?" "Nah. But of course, by deigning to even hear your impertinent request, I have repaid your debt and then some."

 

[aksan5354]

Maybe I should have posted it on here earlier. I encountered this bug since day 1.