Petition for Lippe

[Sataniel98]

Greetings!

In the last dev diary, it has been revealed that a new province will be added to northern Germany: Bielefeld / Ravensberg, as a part of the new tag Jülich. However by its shape and, partially, its position, the province rather matchs the Principality of Lippe, and it has been said that Lippe will be added as a revolter tag.

This is a petition to add Lippe as an independent tag.

The reasons are the following:
* Many OPMs exist (or have been announced for the update) in the HRE that represent territories which were roughly as small as Lippe, such as Bayreuth, Kleve, Passau, Bregenz, Nassau or Anhalt. Even Dithmarschen, which was (and is still) extremely rural, also is independent.
* The province borders would look better: Lippe is a bit more in the south east where the Paderborn province is, so if "Bielefeld" only represented Lippe, Hoya could be as broad as Hannover.
* Historically, Lippe existed from the 12th century until 1947 without disruption. Out of about 50 tags that will exist in 1444 in Germany, Lippe outlived about 40 - Jülich itself even by centuries.
* While it is a common mnemonic that in 1789, 1789 territories existed in the Holy Roman Empire, frustratingly, in most EU4 runs, it takes just a few hundred years until the Empire is mostly devided between about four or five blobs. As an OPM, an independent Lippe would make her region more stable since Lippe wouldn't be able to expand but still to defend itself by joining Lübeck's trade league.
* This also makes sense historically, because Lippe included Lemgo, a member city of the Hanseatic League, that used to be bigger than Bielefeld.
* I have the feeling the main reason why Bielefeld was chosen is its modern status as the biggest city in East Westphalia. But, it was by no means an important city in the EU4 timeline. It had a population of only 2500 people in 1510 and 6500 in 1820 in total. It wasn't politically independent and played no outstanding role in history until the post-EU4 time, and I'm not aware of bigger cities in Ravensberg.
* As for the church, Bielefeld was subordinate to the archdeacon of Lemgo.
* Lippe is historically interesting as a center of witch hunts during the reformation. Bernard VII was known for being the longest-ever ruling monarch in Europe of all time and involved in multiple historic feuds of that time.
* A branch line of the ruling dynasty ruled over half of the County of Schaumburg, which was next to Lippe in what today is Lower Saxony. Since EU4 often makes one tag out of different territories that are ruled by the same dynasty, like Mecklenburg, Schaumburg-Lippe should be taken into account as something that Lippe would represent better than Ravensberg.
* Ravensberg was an early western German exclave of Prussia, but it wouldn't matter that much if Prussia doesn't get this one province because it acquired Kleve and Mark (in the EU4 province "Berg") at the same time.
* Fine, tasty Strohsemmels.

 

[Mingmung]

Thank you for this thread. I wrote some feedback for the whole region, too. Including this part; Lippe > Ravensberg. A small bit of Paderborn should be included to make way for the town of Detmold (Lippe's most important town and capital).

Ravensberg/Bielefeld was indeed not as important in the EU4 timeline.

 

[Sataniel98]

town of Detmold (Lippe's most important town and capital).

This is a misconception: Detmold was the residence of the Lords / Counts / Princes, but for the longest time not the most important city in Lippe. German Wikipedia says Detmold had a population of about 700 people in 1590. The most important, richer, and many times bigger city and origin of the reformation in Lippe was Lemgo. The reason why it never became the center of government is that the weak Counts could not really have their way there. For example, while Lippe was Reformed, Lemgo was strong enough to resist the "cuius regio, eius religio" principle and keep their Lutheran faith; the city even today still is devided in the Lutheran historic downtown and later incorporated Reformed suburbs.

I don't know what the "capital" of a province in EU4 usually represents. If it is rather a political center, or even the residence of the souvereign in provinces of independent tags, then it should be Detmold; if it is the most important city, it should be Lemgo.

Anyway, correct me if I am wrong, but province names can, but province capitals cannot be named dynamically through tags, so a released Lippe would currently by default have Bielefeld as her capital :S

 

[Mingmung]

This is a misconception: Detmold was the residence of the Lords / Counts / Princes, but for the longest time not the most important city in Lippe. German Wikipedia says Detmold had a population of about 700 people in 1590. The most important, richer, and many times bigger city and origin of the reformation in Lippe was Lemgo. The reason why it never became the center of government is that the weak Counts could not really have their way there. For example, while Lippe was Reformed, Lemgo was strong enough to resist the "cuius regio, eius religio" principle and keep their Lutheran faith; the city even today still is devided in the Lutheran historic downtown and later incorporated Reformed suburbs.

I don't know what the "capital" of a province in EU4 usually represents. If it is rather a political center, or even the residence of the souvereign in provinces of independent tags, then it should be Detmold; if it is the most important city, it should be Lemgo.

Anyway, correct me if I am wrong, but province names can, but province capitals cannot be named dynamically through tags, so a released Lippe would currently by default have Bielefeld as her capital :S

You're absolutely right, Detmold and Lemgo are luckily very close to each other. Detmold was indeed the seat of the ruling family. About the last part, it would indeed have Bielefeld as capital, which would make zero sense.

That's why I'm absolutely for a Lippe tag by default and Jülich having a core on this region.

 

[Caligula Caesar]

Ravensberg was chosen so we didn't need to add a micro-state OPM. Sure, Lippe lasted a long time, but so did many micro-states in the HRE. More relevant is, did they ever do anything of importance? Did anything relevant ever happen in their territories?

Anyway an independent Lippe would usually just be conquered by whoever gets in first.

 

[Mingmung]

Ravensberg was chosen so we didn't need to add a micro-state OPM. Sure, Lippe lasted a long time, but so did many micro-states in the HRE. More relevant is, did they ever do anything of importance? Did anything relevant ever happen in their territories?

Anyway an independent Lippe would usually just be conquered by whoever gets in first.

Them surviving for so long in reality, as well as having a cool CoA is one thing, though. In my opinion better and more believable than a releasable in a Ravensberg/Bielefeld province controlled by Jülich-Berg. The town of Bielefeld wasn't that important during much of EU4's timeperiod, either.

I mean, the tag is there as you have said. It existed in 1444. Why deny its inclusion from the start? It's something hard for the more diehard and luck-driven players and something colorful for those who want to conquer it. It's the HRE; micro-states are to be expected. Them being quickly conquered doesn't have to be a problem; it's the reality for many OPM's in EU4.

It's basically the same for every Free City that has been added; some of which are pretty 'negligible' compared to other tags that could've been added.

 

[Caligula Caesar]

It's about making a better game. If we do as some people seem to want and have every OPM in the HRE represented, we will hardly have any countries with more than two or three provinces - the vast majority will have one. Then you may as well roll a dice as to which come out on top in the initial struggles, and likely none will be able to stand against the major powers, ever. Keeping the amount of new tags in check means that we can better control who will be significant, and design content and tweak balance accordingly.

 

[Mingmung]

It's about making a better game. If we do as some people seem to want and have every OPM in the HRE represented, we will hardly have any countries with more than two or three provinces - the vast majority will have one. Then you may as well roll a dice as to which come out on top in the initial struggles, and likely none will be able to stand against the major powers, ever. Keeping the amount of new tags in check means that we can better control who will be significant, and design content and tweak balance accordingly.

To be fair, there never has been that much of a 'balance'; it's whatever happens after a new update which will become the new 'usual' before the next update.

We've had Iberian Siberia once, nowadays Mamlukean Indonesia... A moshpit of states within the HRE vying for control is the least ahistorical scenario out of those.

Design-decisions are yours to make, obviously. I'm not in charge of gameplay. And this is not a real historical/geographical mistake, agreed. I just hope you'll also look at some others parts, though. I mentioned some mistakes/inconsistencies in the Kleinstaaterei-thread; you really should take a look (it has been a joint effort by some friends and myself).

EDIT: My apologies, but 'doing as some people want by adding every OPM' is a hyperbole. Every OPM would result in 300-400 tags; no suggestion even comes close to that and the big Kleinstaaterei thread has the same province-density as your map, with you adding more Free Cities even.

 

[Caligula Caesar]

Yes, I saw the feedback, thanks for that. Some cities changed location.

 

[Mingmung]

Yes, I saw the feedback, thanks for that. Some cities changed location.

Not in this thread, but could you maybe explain some design-decisions like not adding tags like Fulda, independent Bamberg (not being a vassal), etc. Even though they're on the map. Really curious about that. Bielefeld is explainable, as it was under real Jülich-Berg control, but Fulda wasn't under Wurzburg-control, neither was Hoya under Welf-control. There were also other things I pointed out, like Rosenheim, what are your thoughts on that?

I just really wonder what you disagreed upon and why.

Btw, this is all because of a big passion for this game and its accuracy. So I hope you won't mind the sometimes-snarky comments that are made.

 

[Caligula Caesar]

To give a short and simple answer, it's about which tags were important enough to merit inclusion as independent countries and which not. Some which narrowly missed out then got added as vassals or releasables.

 

[Mingmung]

To give a short and simple answer, it's about which tags were important enough to merit inclusion as independent countries and which not. Some which narrowly missed out then got added as vassals or releasables.

I fully understand that, but having some provinces under the control of a tag which didn't even control it (Fulda, Hoya, Verden, Lienz (although we haven't seen your work on Austria yet, etc.)) is still a bit odd. I mean, the province is there. Half the work is done. If history-files are hard and time-consuming to make then the fanbase could make them, even. Lippe's case is understandable, as Bielefeld was obviously under the control of Jülich-Berg.

TLDR; Why add provinces if you don't plan to give them to the tag that controlled it? Would the game really suffer from 4 more OPM's and 2 two-province minors extra? I doubt it.

Also; Mainzian Erfurt, haven't heard you about it yet. Thuringia had less control over the city than Mainz. Mainz controlled most of the countryside (Heiligenstadt in the Eichsfeld, etc.) and even collected taxes in Erfurt. The city became somewhat autonomous until the 17th or so century, but that didn't mean it was Thuringian at all. Especially not in 1444. Mainzian with higher autonomy in-game would be perfect.

 

[Sataniel98]

Thank you for your replies.

Sure, Lippe lasted a long time, but so did many micro-states in the HRE. More relevant is, did they ever do anything of importance? Did anything relevant ever happen in their territories?

Not many microstates also lasted through the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss and the Napoleonic era though.
If you are interested in what Lippe did, I can wholeheartedly recommend the books by Johannes Arndt I did mention a bit in the OP. Most notably are the Soest feud / its fight against its vassalage to Westphalia, the Schmalkaldic War, the witch hunts in Lemgo (which shouldn't be shrugged off as a mere branch of this phenomenon during the reformation), the conflicts between the Lutheran and Calvinist reformation and the devastation in the Thrity Years' War. It's not that much, but it isn't less than in Dithmarschen, Lauenburg or Anhalt.
Let me put it like this: Apart from Prussia with its exclaves, since Cleves and Jülich are gone after half of the timeline, what other tag represents the Protestants and lay princes in what today is NRW?

Anyway an independent Lippe would usually just be conquered by whoever gets in first.

The implication that smaller countries are necessarily short-lived is something I simply cannot confirm in the HRE from my experience. Salzburg for example has two way bigger neighbors, Bavaria and Austria, but that doesn't mean it's soon gone. More often, I see it taking one or two Bavarian provinces and living through rather long. Lübeck isn't an Imperial City in EU4, but it survives and becomes kind of a territorial state almost every time. Dithmarschen, Augsburg, Alsace, Anhalt, Magdeburg and Oldenburg also often survive. In Brandenburg runs, vassalizing Pomerania - with five provinces a relatively large HRE member - is usually done before 1450, while taking the OPM Magdeburg, which starts as a member of Lübeck's trade league and produces a lot of AE when conquered, is much more of a challenge. If it comes to defense, one mediocre ally means way more in the HRE than one or two provinces more anyway, and Lippe could get its allies through a trade league, or ally whatever country it has common rivals with (there should be at least one, Münster, Cologne and Brunswick still share borders after all).

As it is at the moment, I'd worry more about Jülich, which currently seems to be fair game: It borders Münster, Cologne and Brunswick, and I guess Cleves has a core on Berg. In the best case, it's probably devided between whoever of its nine neighbours ally; in the worst case, Cologne attacks and it's gone after one war, leaving behind an early and massive imbalance in the region.

I also don't understand the problem with Lippe being conquerable. If the worst case is that Lippe is conquered by whoever gets in first (which isn't unlikely to be Jülich if it has a core as a compensation for Ravensburg) then that worst case would be about the situation we have right now.

It's about making a better game. If we do as some people seem to want and have every OPM in the HRE represented, we will hardly have any countries with more than two or three provinces - the vast majority will have one. Then you may as well roll a dice as to which come out on top in the initial struggles, and likely none will be able to stand against the major powers, ever. Keeping the amount of new tags in check means that we can better control who will be significant, and design content and tweak balance accordingly.

I wholeheartedly appreciate the desire to make a better game instead of populistically adding whatever is demanded. But this petition does not ask to have every OPM in the HRE represented, it asks to have Lippe represented. I am not by any means asking you to change reasonable map design paradigms, such as tag abstractions. As I wrote in the OP, I myself used these as arguments in favor of adding Lippe. I see no inconsistency with the used map design paradigms that would prevent Lippe from being added - Jülich however doesn't look to me like an average territory at all.

An independent Lippe does not hurt any of the slightly bigger countries that are important for game balance, which before the update in that region were Cologne and Brunswick. Adding Lippe compensates Cologne's relative loss of power that is caused by the addition of Jülich next to it, and, provided that Hoya loses at least some development if it represents less land after an update, mitigates Brunswick's gain of an additional province.

Some which narrowly missed out then got added as vassals or releasables.

Why isn't Lippe added as a vassal of Westphalia (Cologne) or Hesse then, which it historically was for quite some time?

 

[Canute VII]

Compromise suggestion:

• name the province "Ravensberg"
• give Jülich a core on it, or a permanent claim via mission
• create tag "Lippe", an independent tag which owns Ravensberg at game start
• create revolter tag "Lemgo", which if successful, will be a merchant republic
• the Lemgo tag will have a blue flower as opposed to Lippe's red flower
• Lemgo is a lot more appropriate for the time period and more flavourful than Bielefeld, with which most Germans will not attribute anything
• the main town in the province will be Lemgo, anyway (irl up to the 30 years war)
• add event that main town becomes "Bielefeld" if province gets heavily devastated

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemgo

I also think, there could be quite some flavour events representing the choice lutheranism vs, calvinism, see "Röhrentruper Rezess":
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Röhrentruper_Rezess