Piracy and privateering

[Antiscamp]

I think piracy and privateering should be better represented in EUIV. In real history, this scourge was an important feature throughout the whole period EUIV portrays and which actually brought empires down to their knees. The Spanish empire suffered tremendously because of pirates; the English piracy and privateering was one of the reasons the Spanish sent the Armada of 1588.

In EUIII you see a few pirate ships appearing here and there every now and then but they're never any real threat. Here's a few ideas. In EUIV, state-sponsored pirates could prey on the trade routes. You could issue letters of marque aimed at specific nations; taking diplomacy hits while weakening their trade routes and perhaps getting a cut of the plunder. The states being targeted by pirates would have to tie up naval and military resources to deal with the threat. Pirates should flock to weaker nations issuing letters of marque against strong economies (like England vs Spain). Diplomacy hits for the nations issuing the letter of marque should be severe. The pirates themselves could be AI-run as far as I'm concerned.

 

[FOARP]

I think piracy and privateering should be better represented in EUIV. In real history, this scourge was an important feature throughout the whole period EUIV portrays and which actually brought empires down to their knees. The Spanish empire suffered tremendously because of pirates; the English piracy and privateering was one of the reasons the Spanish sent the Armada of 1588.

In EUIII you see a few pirate ships appearing here and there every now and then but they're never any real threat. Here's a few ideas. In EUIV, state-sponsored pirates could prey on the trade routes. You could issue letters of marque aimed at specific nations; taking diplomacy hits while weakening their trade routes and perhaps getting a cut of the plunder. The states being targeted by pirates would have to tie up naval and military resources to deal with the threat. Pirates should flock to weaker nations issuing letters of marque against strong economies (like England vs Spain). Diplomacy hits for the nations issuing the letter of marque should be severe. The pirates themselves could be AI-run as far as I'm concerned.

I think the real problem with piracy and privateering in EUIII was just how spammy it became - you would have to play constant whack-a-mole all over the map to the point where you just didn't want to even bother fighting them any more. I personally would have preferred if it had just been a simple modifier for port provinces, something that reduces tax income and can be avoided by improving stability like the 'bandits' event that fires in CKII when your demesne gets too big.

Privateering could be something that's triggered by enemies deciding to target you, and trade-raiding by the presence of an enemy fleet on one of your trade-routes.

My hope is that Paradox already knows this. Judging by their comments about how when automation is needed that indicates that there is a problem, they do.

 

[Overlord123]

I think the real problem with piracy and privateering in EUIII was just how spammy it became - you would have to play constant whack-a-mole all over the map to the point where you just didn't want to even bother fighting them any more. I personally would have preferred if it had just been a simple modifier for port provinces, something that reduces tax income and can be avoided by improving stability like the 'bandits' event that fires in CKII when your demesne gets too big.

Privateering could be something that's triggered by enemies deciding to target you, and trade-raiding by the presence of an enemy fleet on one of your trade-routes.

My hope is that Paradox already knows this. Judging by their comments about how when automation is needed that indicates that there is a problem, they do.

There was already the tariff efficiency which was reduced if you didn't have enough ship for your oversea provinces. They should have kept it at that IMHO without the damn pirate ships.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

From this video in another thread:

[video]http://www.gamespot.com/events/gamescom-2012/video.html?sid=6391927[/video]

I would think that pirates would work like some kind of modifier on the trade routes that would be countered by stationing navies to protect the routes.

 

[Smeghead]

Maybe there should be a distinctive difference between Pirates and Privateers in game. Pirates could perhaps just be a modifier like Meanmanturbo suggested, but privateers should maybe be more like the EU3 pirates but with a big twist.

Privateers have played a role in shaping the world during this time, and many powerful nations took part in privateering, not just during wars but also just to grab a piece of another man's cake and get away with it. However to implement it into the game without turning it into spam might take some work. Maybe there should be some requirements (and costs) involved in recruiting privateers that limits you to maybe just one privateer fleet per year (and the privateers will only operate for a limited time (say 1 year)). You wouldn't have direct control over the privateers but you could choose where to spawn them (like in EU3) but they will not attack your ships or ships owned by your allies in war or vassals.

Of course privateers should come with the possibility of rewards in that part of the value from the trade they block should end up in your treasury, so that you might actually make money of privateering. However privateering should come with risks as well. If a privateer fleet you hired is destroyed there should always be a chance that whoever destroyed the fleet finds out who sponsored them and thus gaining a CB against you and you taking a prestige loss.
It would also make the Anti-Piracy act have an actuall downside (if the act still exists in EU4) in that it forever stops you from hiring privateers.

Now these are just ideas based around a discussion we had some time ago about piracy in EU3, and I don't know how well any of these ideas would work in EU4

 

[Hystarea]

Maybe pirates will only attack trade routes in EUIV

 

[SouthernKing]

I hope that the trade route system can fit piracy better, I found it a bit silly that pirates were blockading my 70-population colonies on the coast of Brazil just months after founding.
Also, I think that you should be able to interact with pirates somehow (like the planned barbary pirates event pool from MMtG).

 

[Derp]

As important as they were, with the scale and scope of EU being what it is I can't help but think the best way to handle pirates would be to just abstract them completely. Trade route penalties that are in turn modified by things like fleet strength and tech, etc.

 

[Jaol]

The trade routes look extremely promising for modeling piracy and commerce raiding (not that the 2 were always so clearly different).

 

[George LeS]

@SouthernKing: Yes, the game really needs to revamp the way forces, and especially fleets, appear at start. Assuming peacetime:

- At least 3/4 of Bigs should be at home. If you have 2 coasts, they should be split. (I have loaded at many dates, and have yet to see a French fleet in the Med.)

- Lights should mostly be spread throughout one's overseas holdings, and anywhere else pirates might be. That's how they were used.

- Galleys should be in the inland seas which cause you to get them. It's absurd to start the Nap scenario, and see French Galleys all over the world.

- Transports should be near the troops (duh).

None of the above is true now.

On the costs of privateering, it is important to realize that one result was the capture of many skilled sailors. I don't have the data to hand, but the number of French sailors, in British hands in the Nap Wars is eye popping. This was a scarce resource (something else the game doesn't show), and a prolonged raiding campaign like that one will drain your fleet's quality.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Indeed. The Mamluks should start with fleets in the Med and in the Red Sea.

 

[Jaol]

@SouthernKing: Yes, the game really needs to revamp the way forces, and especially fleets, appear at start. Assuming peacetime:

- At least 3/4 of Bigs should be at home. If you have 2 coasts, they should be split. (I have loaded at many dates, and have yet to see a French fleet in the Med.)

- Lights should mostly be spread throughout one's overseas holdings, and anywhere else pirates might be. That's how they were used.

- Galleys should be in the inland seas which cause you to get them. It's absurd to start the Nap scenario, and see French Galleys all over the world.

- Transports should be near the troops (duh).

None of the above is true now.

+2. Although there really should also be proper OOB files, so unit locations can be defined for scenarios. But that sounds like a good general rule for dates where there isn't a defined scenario.

Even better would be if the game made it such that the AI will want to keep fleets in something like that setup.

 

[George LeS]

+2. Although there really should also be proper OOB files, so unit locations can be defined for scenarios. But that sounds like a good general rule for dates where there isn't a defined scenario.

Even better would be if the game made it such that the AI will want to keep fleets in something like that setup.

Thanks. And I didn't even mention the point that MOST of any large navy should be in reserve ("in ordinary" in the English speaking world.) This was true of galley fleets through 3-deckers.

 

[Jaol]

Thanks. And I didn't even mention the point that MOST of any large navy should be in reserve ("in ordinary" in the English speaking world.) This was true of galley fleets through 3-deckers.

If you could set maintenance levels for individual units, you could sort of represent that. As in the navies that are actual guarding sea lanes, etc. would have their maintenance at 100%, the ones in ordinary would be at 10% (or whatever the AI likes to do).

It would also be good for when you want to have one colonial unit at 100% morale to fight rebels, but don't want to pay full maintenance for your home armies.

If the military screen looks anything like the one in V2, it would be easy to do, too. And no micromanagement, if you didn't want to use the feature. Basically, there'd be a screen with every army and navy listed on it (just like in V2). Each army/navy would have an individual maintenance slider that can be moved and/or locked to set the level for that unit. Then the main army/navy maintenance sliders would change the maintenance levels for all your non-locked armies and fleets.

 

[George LeS]

If you could set maintenance levels for individual units, you could sort of represent that. As in the navies that are actual guarding sea lanes, etc. would have their maintenance at 100%, the ones in ordinary would be at 10% (or whatever the AI likes to do).

It would also be good for when you want to have one colonial unit at 100% morale to fight rebels, but don't want to pay full maintenance for your home armies.

If the military screen looks anything like the one in V2, it would be easy to do, too. And no micromanagement, if you didn't want to use the feature. Basically, there'd be a screen with every army and navy listed on it (just like in V2). Each army/navy would have an individual maintenance slider that can be moved and/or locked to set the level for that unit. Then the main army/navy maintenance sliders would change the maintenance levels for all your non-locked armies and fleets.

That would be better. But really, what I'm talking about is ships wholly out of commission. You can't do ANYTHING with them, until they are recommissioned. Still, what you describe would help.

 

[Jaol]

That would be better. But really, what I'm talking about is ships wholly out of commission. You can't do ANYTHING with them, until they are recommissioned. Still, what you describe would help.

Maybe make it so that ships at 0% maintenance would have to be in port unable to move or protect trade etc. (the stuff Johan did in the video).

 

[George LeS]

Maybe make it so that ships at 0% maintenance would have to be in port unable to move or protect trade etc. (the stuff Johan did in the video).

That'd work. The engine would have to bump the slider automatically if you try to move them, sort of the way it bumps the sliders when you reach +3 stab.

IMO, there should be no naval maintenance slider, period. A switch, on/off, on being in commission, and there's an end to it.

 

[Phainx]

Trade lane, excellent idea it adds a tactical advantage in war. If your trade lanes are cut off and your not a country that creates their own materials than you are going to suffer greatly. However i feel that you should be able to pick which trade lane, so in times of war you can change it. The terrain affecting which route travel when going overland.

However this is about piracy and people should not pirate paradox games!
Other than that as people has already said we should be able to fund pirates or hire pirates to harass trade lanes (piracy should also increase in colonies look at how Britain was able to harass Spain in the new world both on land and on water,) to gain a profit that would massively help start colonies.

 

[murlocmancer]

I am assuming they wil add a privateer ship which maybe siphons gold from enemy trade routes. So if lets say spain puts one at venices trade line with Alexandria, someof the gold will be transfered to spain. One actual case is what the dutch did the spanish and portuguese. They costantly took gold through privateering ships and it sould be constructable now imo.