Player Intimidation in MP (Tactics Here)

[Prince Eugene]

Part of the idea for this came from here.

So what are some pointers on how to intimidate players in MP?

I have a few.

*Use a "Pearl Harbor" type approach to go to war. This can catch players by surprise and make them nervous.
*Sweep deep past the borders with cavalry hunting down armies while you leave your infantry and possible cannons on the border to take the provinces.
*Assaulting forts is always intimidating if it is used in a blitzkrieg manner (assaulting one and immediately moving to the next creating a line of occupied territory).

Feel free to post any other topics. I am always open to suggestion.

 

[L G]

I personally prefer the blitzkreig manner, but if thats not available i love thrusting in enemy terriotry with cav armies, thats fun. I dont usually use the Pearl Harbor tactic But the blitzkreig is my favorite take territory on your way there too much moer efficient imo, but it also wears down your armies

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Originally posted by Prince Eugene
*Sweep deep past the borders with cavalry hunting down armies while you leave your infantry and possible cannons on the border to take the provinces.

I knew there was a reason why I always have about 500k cavalry sitting one province back from my borders where it's nicely hidden from the enemy spies. Now I remember why. It's to kill people who use that tactic and then go and destroy their infantry armies.

 

[L G]

o yes mr t, those 500k cav armies always come in handy

 

[Mowers]

Player Intimidation ?

Someone get JohnMK in here.

I will get around to posting some of his comments from a game this week.

 

[L G]

damocles would also be a person to get tips from on this subject

 

[unmerged(3158)]

Once you've played several MP games, there are ways to see a pearl harbour attack coming. Especially if you keep checking the land unit graph. Once you see a significant build up happenning, you can either decide, are they building up for a war or are they raising troops to stem off an attack?

I perfer to stay on the side of caution and conduct a response build up of my own and this alone provides alot of intimidation factor since both sides know what each are doing.

LG can tell a few stories about what happenned when he was France. I was Spain and Juice was Austria. LG went on the warpath into Germany and pushed deeply into Germany. Both me and Austria then formed a plan to deal with France at a later date, but in the meantime, we both needed time to build up and set our countries in order.

So we bided our time and conducted our buildup. Juice wanted to invade as soon as possible, but I got Juice to hold off until 1570 when I can get Farnese and have Duc de Alba as my 2 front leaders. Belisarius on the other hand, who was playing the Ottoman Empire, saw our build up and warned LG about it and conducted a build up of his own.

On 1570, With France already in a protracted war with heavy war exhaustion, I did the DoW and Austria followed suit by joining in. The Ottoman's soon joined the war and Dowed Austria. Austria went after the German lands and fought a holding action in Hungary. While I threw Alba and Farnese into France and started army hunting with both of them. I threw several other armies after them sieging forts and reinforcing Alba or Farnese when I needed too. The bulk of the war centered around in the French heartlands. LG knowing the way I play, created only cavalry armies since I create cavalry army stacks and hunt army downs. With 2 leaders to France's none and Spain alone outnumbering French armies 2 to 1. France was not able to hold Spain and Austria off. In the end France's government fell and several nations broke free from France and Austria siezed all the German lands they had sieged down.

We ended quiting the game soon after. But wars like this tend to be thankfully rare. It was basically a war to the finish. LG was very stubborn about peacing out.

Duma

 

[L G]

such a sad story

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Verbal Intimidation

From the MGC4 game. France, Spain, England, the Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, Poland, and Russia are all player controlled. JohnMK takes over a pretty strong France as a stand-in in 1662, inheriting a substantial army. Little does Mulliman (Spain), know what the future will bring. It is perhaps worth mentioning that Spain's income is 3.5 times that of France at this point at around 380d/mth. This information brought to you by an impartial observer from the Swedish Foreign Office. As such, only discussion available to Sweden is presented. Since Spain chose to stay silent on the matter, only France's viewpoint is heard most of the time. It makes for grim enough reading, really. A decade of intimidation.

[u]Aug, 1662[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : hello folks
  [color=yellow]He is still friendly at this time[/color]
Peter Ebbesen (Sweden) : Hello, all :) 
Smirfy (Austria)       : hi john

[u]Sep, 1662[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : Is someone likely to defend Spain aside from Spain herself?
  [color=yellow]Secret communique to Sweden and God knows whom else[/color]
Peter Ebbesen (Sweden) : pm - given the pile up of France last time, yes. 
JohnMK (France)        : Why? 
Peter Ebbesen (Sweden) : pm -except, I guess, if goals are clearly stated and colonial 
JohnMK (France)        : I have supreme confidence I could take them all on at the same time
  [color=yellow]Some people are confident[/color]

[u]Feb, 1663[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : I don't really feel like being aggressive. What do you guys recommend? 

[u]May, 1663[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : What makes you so sure England & Netherlands will join in? 
Peter Ebbesen (Sweden) : Not sure since new English player 
  [color=yellow]The Swedish Office of foreign affairs is always ready to divulge non-confidential
  information in a spirit of good-will towards all peoples[/color]
[u]Aug, 1663[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : BB under 35? What is mine now? PM 
JohnMK (France)        : PM I plan on being a bad boy very soon 
Peter Ebbesen (Sweden) : pm - don't remember. Something like 6 or 7

[u]Sep-Nov, 1663[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : 2000 ducats/annum 
  [color=yellow]France proposes to protect Spain against aggression in a show of good neighbourship[/color]
JohnMK (France)        : 5 year deal 
JohnMK (France)        : You have 60 days 
JohnMK (France)        : Scratch that. You have till October 15th to decide, or it's instant war. 
JohnMK (France)        : Spain, 2000 ducats/annum 
Mowers (Russia)        : I dont think he has 2k D an annum
  [color=yellow]A voice crying in the wilderness[/color]
JohnMK (France)        : Who will save a fat, rich Spain from sharing her loot? 
Mowers (Russia)        : Spain isnt so rich in this game due to MGC gold event reduction 
JohnMK (France)        : I see 158 gold in Tenochttitlan 
JohnMK (France)        : I'll settle for 1500 
JohnMK (France)        : Spain, you're off the hook for 1200/yr.
  [color=yellow]Following no doubt spirited negotiations, France decides to be magnanimous[/color]
JohnMK (France)        : I think this is a reasonable compromise 
JohnMK (France)        : Spain? Your acknowledgement of my offer please? 

[u]Feb, 1664[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : Alright, payments due every April. 
JohnMK (France)        : Starting this April 

[u]Mar, 1664[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : April 1st. 
JohnMK (France)        : Nah, 15th. 
JohnMK (France)        : Isn't 15th tax day in the U.S>? 

[u]Apr, 1664[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : 5 days 
JohnMK (France)        : It's past due now! :) 
JohnMK (France)        : 100 ducat penalty 
  [color=yellow]France is paid and the safety of Spain secured[/color]

[u]May-July, 1665[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : btw, it's 1200 not 1100 
JohnMK (France)        : I need about 500 more, Spain 
  [color=yellow]Looks like Spain isn't paying on time[/color]
JohnMK (France)        : the agreement was 1200 ducats/yr 
JohnMK (France)        : You've given 731 
JohnMK (France)        : Loans cost me money in stability and lost income from +25 percent
                         tax rates at + 3 stab 
JohnMK (France)        : agreement was 1200, I think everyone else recalls quite clearly your
                         acquiescence 

[u]Aug-Sep, 1665[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : 1091 so far 
JohnMK (France)        : Excellent, 1244 
JohnMK (France)        : I appreciate the tip 
  [color=yellow]France is paid and the safety of Spain secured[/color]

[color=yellow]Nothing was heard in 1666, so, presumably being bored, France found issue
with another minor matter.[/color]

[u]Jan, 1667[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : Poland, just so you know -- I don't smile happily upon your
                         subjugation of the German peoples. 
JohnMK (France)        : Since Austria appears to turn a blind eye, I need to adopt the role
                         of father-protector of the German volk. 
PJL (Poland)           : i'm not subjucating them 
PJL (Poland)           : i am being very tolerant to the orthodox russians 
JohnMK (France)        : If you take any land West of the Elbe river, I won't sleep well at night. 
  [color=yellow]I'm afraid the Swedish Foreign Office has no further knowledge of this exchange[/color]

[u]June, 1667[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : France is very greatful to Spain for her continued patronage. 
  [color=yellow]Yet another 1200d in France's pocket, obviously. Considering France's monthly
  income of around 120d, this is a major boost to the economy.[/color]

[u]May, 1668[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : Spain: 792 so far? 
  [color=yellow]Uh-oh. Spain is falling behind on her payments. But the money is forthcoming[/color]
JohnMK (France)        : 8 more 
JohnMK (France)        : 1200-1192 == 8 
  [color=yellow]This is almost miserly[/color]

[u]Dec-Jan, 1668[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : you're 8 ducats shy, and 15 days away from war 
JohnMK (France)        : Spain? 
JohnMK (France)        : You've been good for so many years, don't ruin this thing now. 
  [color=yellow]Apparently, Spain manages to find the last 8 ducats for 1668, preventing accidents[/color]

[u]April, 1669[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : it's now April, Spain 
JohnMK (France)        : that's more like a slap in the face 
JohnMK (France)        : 159 ducats? 
JohnMK (France)        : 1200 is the agreed upon amount 

[u]May, 1669[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : no, it's 1200 in perpetuity 
JohnMK (France)        : so long as you wish to have a Spanish Empire 
JohnMK (France)        : forever 
JohnMK (France)        : Yes, you shall, one way or another. 
  [color=yellow]Presumably an answer to a question concerning Spain's ability to avoid paying.
  Notice that the 5 year agreement is being extended indefinitely here. France sure
  is a helpful neighbour.[/color]

[u]Jul, 1669[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : Indeed, now I offer you a new lease on life. 
JohnMK (France)        : they cool down quickly without 1200/yr. 
JohnMK (France)        : this is a permanent transfer from the richest nation, to me 
JohnMK (France)        : To France, that is 

[u]Sep, 1669[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : Spain, I'm warning you. The disparity between our two superpowers
                         forces me to request 1200 ducats/year. 
JohnMK (France)        : Spain, what is your reply. You are the richest nation in the world
                         by far, I ask for very little from you. 
JohnMK (France)        : I will accept 1200 /yr in diplomats gifts, or 1600 yr in 1 percent loans 

[u]Nov, 1669[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : Spain? 
JohnMK (France)        : I've been very patient 
JohnMK (France)        : No more war planning 
JohnMK (France)        : just hand over the money so we can live in peae 
  [color=yellow]Spain having for some time been franctically recruiting troops. However, French
  troops are much cheaper, and France can afford to stay ahead of Spain's rearmament -
  on Spain's annual tribute payment alone.[/color]

[u]Dec, 1669[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : No, I keep us at approximate parity 
JohnMK (France)        : In this way, you save Spain. 
  [color=yellow]It worked YET again[/color]

[u]Apr, 1670[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : I would settle for 1000/yr. 
JohnMK (France)        : You need crippling or else you're unbalancingly rich. 
JohnMK (France)        : What is your total annual income. 
JohnMK (France)        : I'm not talking about how much your treasury increases by 
JohnMK (France)        : lol 
JohnMK (France)        : My original demand stands. 

[u]Jul, 1670[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : 1200 mo is so minimal. that's about 30 percent. takes me
                         to 190/mo. you to 250. 
JohnMK (France)        : From the lack of discussion, I can see what's going on. 
  [color=yellow]That's more than the Swedes can[/color]

[u]Oct, 1670[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : Spain do you wish to preserve your Empire? 
  [color=yellow]From the lack of response, it is assumed that Spain does, indeed want
  to preserve its Empire[/color]

[u]Jan, 1671[/u]
Mulliman (Spain)       : peter, do you think anyone will join france? 
Peter Ebbesen (Sweden) : Don't know. 
  [color=yellow]Spain finally talks, or rather, it whispers. However, it is strictly
  speaking not Sweden's problem.[/color]

JohnMK (France)        : Spain, what is your agreement to. 
JohnMK (France)        : If you force me to engage in a costly war, the annual
                         tribute will be that much more expensive for you. 

[u]Mar, 1671[/u]
JohnMK (France)        : call it what you will. 250/mo. isn't 'small minor' 
JohnMK (France)        : maybe what you can't tolerate is being no 1 by not a large margin 
JohnMK (France)        : is being #1 by only 60/mo. too small? 
JohnMK (France)        : I don't care 
JohnMK (France)        : 1200/mo. or cust 
JohnMK (France)        : bust 
JohnMK (France)        : yr. 
  [color=yellow]Turning up the heat... again[/color]

[u]Apr, 1671[/u]
Eliasar (England)      : hmm i dont think so 
Eliasar (England)      : im not interested to a war 
  [color=yellow]Wonder who asked England a question about war? 10d says Spain![/color]

[u]Jul, 1671[/u]
Mulliman (Spain)       : peter, will you join with me incase of war?
  [color=yellow]After he has spent nearly seven years building up France's army with something like
  50% of my total income - per year!? A diplomatic response is needed but hard to come by[/color]
Peter Ebbesen (Sweden) : pm - Why? You never did pay the entrance fee 
  [color=yellow]Referring here to "The Friends of Sweden", an exclusive club with a purely nominal
  entrance fee to cover administration fees. The conversation degenerates slightly from here.[/color]

[u]Jan, 1672[/u]
Mowers (Russia)        : thats it for today
JohnMK (France)        : Good game.
Mulliman (Spain)       : whew!
Eliasar (England)      : *seufz*" 
Smirfy (Austria)       : being soveriegn nations we don't like frances demands on spain
  [color=yellow]Safest time to say something like this, really. Session is over.[/color]

Fortunately for Spain, the session ends January 1672, without a declaration of war. It is probably safe to say, that Mulliman longs for the return of Waldzwerg, the regular French player.

Now that is what I call effective intimidation. In effect, France got Spain to pay about 30% of its income for the seven or eight out of the ten years played. Without utilizing anything but the threat of an army on the border, and a very intimidating approach to international diplomacy.

 

[L G]

that was a really good job by him Why did spain not try to secure more allies with money ? offering england and austria that amount would obviously have been a better choice if i recall correctly was the big war against france before or after that? i took over france in that game for a few years but i dont remember what year

 

[Prince Eugene]

This was long after the big war on France. Mowers, you said you wouldn't let me play France. Letting JohnMK play France is an even bigger mistake.

Peter, do you have any idea why the other players weren't hoping up and down to intervene? As said by Mowers nothing can beat a round-robin of war declarations.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by L G
What was a really good job by him Why did spain not try to secure more allies with money ? offering england and austria that amount would obviously have been a better choice

Or Sweden. In the current balance of power, Sweden is basically a Northern mercenary army waiting to be hired.

Originally posted by Prince Eugene
Peter, do you have any idea why the other players weren't hoping up and down to intervene? As said by Mowers nothing can beat a round-robin of war declarations.

If Spain did anything to secure allies, I certainly didn't notice. Not until the very last moment when war seemed about to break out no matter what.

I cannot speak for the other players, obviously, but given Spain's behaviour, I had zero interest in jumping France. Additionally, I found watching the intimidation tactics quite interesting.

Given that I had suggested to Spain prior to this session that buying goodwill with potential allies might be a very good idea and enable them to act in the first place - some nations are rather poorer than Spain, after all - rather than keep hammering them in the various CoTs, I sat waiting for Spain to contact me (with a bag of money ), while minding my own business. We reached an agreement on trade (stopping the trade Swedish-Spanish and Russian-Spanish trade war), and that was about it. No direct aid.

Being a bit nasty to Mulliman here, I can easily understand that no other players were particularly interested in fighting Spain's fights for him - he was arming the enemy they would have to face rather than his allies, after all

*Somebody refresh Spain's memory on the topic of Danegeld*

On the other hand, I must admit that JohnMK is frightingly effective at intimidation tactics. He would certainly have scared me were I in Mulliman's positionl. (But I would have taken the war instead - possibly less damaging in the long run since France had neither a way at getting at Spain's substantial colonial possessions nor a fleet)

Now, if France had invaded Spain, it is quite possible that other nations would have been drawn in... On one side or the other. But that is a completely different situation.

 

[L G]

Spain could have just withdrawn to her mountains with GIANT armies of infantry and artillery I did that against Prince Eugene once, he sent cav into the mountains after me But after he threw even larger infantry armies at me and with me having no hope of allied intervention i yeilded (he was france)
So i gave him roussilon when the war ended after 2 years in 1550ish

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by L G
Spain could have just withdrawn to her mountains with GIANT armies of infantry and artillery

Except that prior to 1662, Spain had seemed to find around 50K troops in Iberia enough... France started that session with many times that number of troops on the border alone, with substantial reinforcements in the interior. Spain didn't *have* any giant armies at that time, and it would take a substantial time to acquire them.

Nevertheless, I agree with you. Spain could have made the war very expensive for France to pursue, and some of the other major powers might have decided to intervene.

 

[L G]

Would have been more fun to watch too if you had a rm that is

 

[unmerged(10915)]

Well, first, Spain stopped giving france subsidies after the five year period.

And i didn´t stand entirely without allies. Though i would wish for more.

And yes, JohnMK was scary!
Not having played too much MP, i wasn´t very able to counter his intimidations.

Edit: ah screw it, cant insert pic

 

[Prince Eugene]

Originally posted by L G
Spain could have just withdrawn to her mountains with GIANT armies of infantry and artillery I did that against Prince Eugene once, he sent cav into the mountains after me But after he threw even larger infantry armies at me and with me having no hope of allied intervention i yeilded (he was france)
So i gave him roussilon when the war ended after 2 years in 1550ish

I remember that war. The only resistance you showed was a 70k army in Castile and a 40k army in Aragon (I invaded by sea rather than going through the treacherous Pyrennes). Really you did when a battle or two with that 70k before I just sent in another 200k cavalry reinforcements waiting on the border. I had been at half maintenace the whole time since I was counterreformed (it was later than the 1550s). The cannon-retreat-attrition tactic you used really works well for Spain unless they are severly outnumbered which was of course the case. Your only ally chance was England who had got beaten earlier (I owned Cornwall and Wessex after that incident). That war really was unfortunate for you and ridiculous for me since my numerical advantage was so large that I didn't even need good tactics.

*correction - I never used any infantry in that war.

 

[L G]

yes you did, after i owned every cav army you sent into the mountains and Dynokeg wasnt with us when you invaded me he was gone or somthing.

 

[unmerged(3158)]

I'm quite surprised Spain allowed herself be bullyed by France like so. I play Spain on a regular basis and always take a proactive stance against any threat. Then again I follow the LaexMachine rule of thumb.

Be a bastard to your enemies and offer candy to your allies. Let me give a synopsis of a long term game we ended up having to quit due to the BoP being bent out of shape.

We had 6 long term players for our game. I was Spain, LG was Russia, Sadistik was France, Dynokeg was the Ottoman Empire, N. Katsyev was Austria and Pibe was England.

Our game was edited to add in the Ottoman shields of 1419. Dyno early on wars on Hungary hoping to get them early without much of a struggle, Kat joins in on the war to prevent the Ottos from taking out Hungary. This war remains just a 2 nation war with no one else participating. As for me as Spain, using wartaxes, I start feeding Austria cash to help with her war effort and keep exploring and colonizing. The Otto's were only able to take Transylvania out of the war. A second war for Hungary broke out in early 1500 and again as Spain, I feed the Austrian's cash and the Otto's take nothing from Hungary.

My normal rule of thumb is to take out the Aztecs by 1501 and then the Incas by 1512-13. With that in mind, the Aztecs fell in 1501, but the Incas was delayed by 5 years and it wasn't until 1518 that I was able to take them out. As a Spanish player, you always need to worry about an agressive France and so as a rule, you build as many large cavalry armies as you can while colonizing and exploring.

About 1512 France makes her move for her national provinces under Austrian control. France overruns the Dutch Netherlands and starts demanding all of the Netherlands plus her cores. With France and Spain under a truce, France confidently expected that a Spain would not interfere. I promised France that if France did not ask for reasonable terms I would join the war. Sadistik refuses and replies we are under truce and a -6 stab hit would be enough to deter Spain. I then DoW France, take the stab hit and send El Gran Capitan over with 40 thousand cavalry to attack France. Another 40 thousand Cavalry is sent after and I begin quickly recruiting more cavalry.

The way I play Spain, I push my quantity down so I can turn Spain into a continental power. After several pitched battles, with Bayard and La Palace slain, Spain clears most of France of her armies with one last army in Provence which is bottled up by El Gran Capitan, while another army sits on Paris sieging it down. At this point peace negotiations break out and we begin the process of finding a resolution. With France clearly defeated and Paris almost sieged. France agreed to only take her cores and leave the Netherlands to Austrian control.

What Sadistik probably didn't think would happen, happenned. I was more then willinging to take the huge stab hit to prevent France from dominating the continent. And more so I was confident I could defeat Sadistik because Spain was prepared for a war with France. Spain always needs to be prepared for a war and checking on your land unit graph to see what your neighbors are doing is a must.

Here's another war that erupted in the 1570's. The Ottoman and the Russians allied look toward the Austrians. With Dyno's hunger for lands under Austrian control, a third war erupts. Kat tho, for a short period of time never informs Spain about the war. I find out by checking on Austria and to my amazement find the Russians and Turks swarming over Hungary. I immedietely DoW the Ottoman's and begin a vast ship construction program, while drafting more troops to be sent over. At this time Spain had approximately 250 thousand troops in Iberia and 100 thousand in the Spanish lowlands. But unfortunately my fleet in the mediterran is quite small. So by the time I can send Alba over with 50 thousand cavalry, much of Hungary lay in Russian and Turk hands.

When Alba arrives in Austria, I send him off and start hunting armies down. Russia by this time has a leader Ivan Shuski, who repulses Alba from Vienna and later takes the city. During the war, I send Austria non-repayable loans in excess of 5-6 thousand ducats to help them. England 3 thousand to pursuade them to join the war, which they do and quickly peace out, and 4 thousand to the Dutch who are played by Civilized Warefare.

The war is on its 8th year or close to that, that I can tell that we are wearing Russia and the Otto's out. Fewer armies are crossing into Austria and fighting is becoming more fiercer as the Russians and Ottos push towards Italy. Spain on one hand has depleted her 79 manpower but is constantly sending 30-40 thousand cavalry over. But both the Russians and Otto's are suffering staggering revolts in their occupied territories. Much of North Africa is rebeling, while Poland writhes under Russian control. Spain and her colonies are healthy, for all her colonies have no tax collectors and are Iberian, state religion and +3 stab. We were slowly wearing the Russians and Otto's out, with counterattacks by the Austrians and Spanish becoming more frequent. Retaking back all the land lost was a matter of time.

But it was at this point that France joins the war and joins the Ottoman, Russian alliance. The 3 largest manpower nations. From what I was told later, Sadistik was offered alot of cash as incentive to join the war, with Russia under heavy pressure to keep the war up and the Otto's under heavy revolts. LG and Dyno were desperate to turn the onslaught and divert Spain's attention. With France now in the war, Spain was forced to divert the 2 30k armies that were intended for Austria, and send them against France. The war against Austria ended with Austria lossing hungary, which were half her land, and more importantly half her shielded provinces. A crippling blow.

With Spain's manpower depleted, the war would drag on for Spain and France for another 10 years on a grudge about Navarra. France refusing to surrender the land and free the people, while Spain demanding that Navarra be free and remain a buffer state.

The game would be called sighting the fact that 3 of the largest manpower nations allied, irrevocably damaged the BoP and the game could not go on with the damage already done to Austria.

Duma

 

[Prince Eugene]

This for the most part was just a two player game. He really never stood a chance as I just dug into Italy at the beginning. He was so worried about thouroughly colonizing and keeping gold inflation from happening that it took him forever to get the gold natives. Through the game (it only got to abou 1600) I conquered new world CoT's (Manhattan, Ivoria...) and managed to equal his cash flow. With the manpower advantage France has not even the best players could have beaten be back.