Please stop the genetics madness

[Pangalactic]

I have absolutely no idea why you can know the genetics of EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER in the world. Sure, you might be able to find out that someone is a good steward/spymaster/etc just by gathering information and talking to people in the world, and that is at least somewhat realistic, but being able to see that someone is genetic(!!!) genius with a 0 learning imbecile ruler is quite silly. Moreover, it turns the whole game into a breeding fest with no interesting mechanics other than cross-breeding as many genetically enhanced character as there are.

Genetics should definitely not be available to every single character. For example, it can require 10 learning first with a scholarship focus (possibly with the genetics subroute in CK3), and if you successfully complete it you get the benefit of seeing the genetic traits - perhaps with some additional mechanics added (maybe being able to see couple compatibility and the best match for passing on the genes). This way it can be quite a fun addition to the game.

 

[noknok]

Huh, interesting. Not sure I understand exactly, but do you think that stats would best be represented with a rough descriptor like, poor/fair/high etc and then the actual number score is kept hidden unless you have some in game justified way to more accurately asses the character you are looking at?

 

[prismaticmarcus]

that's why the imbecile ruler has staff.

i'm so tempted to talk about the real world right now, but i won't.

 

[Woifee]

I get what you mean, but gameplay wise it’s not that bad because as player you often have to make a choice by breeding good genetics or good claims into your line. This offers different strategies for your games.

 

[Atalvyr]

Eh, I see the traits more as the types of things you would hear about a ruler if you asked around. A lot of kings were know as "the Fair" for their looks. It would not be rocket science to guess that marrying a beautiful king would like produce beautiful kids. Likewise for someone know as "the Wise" or "the Strong". For intelligence and strength, upbringing would probably also be a significant factor. If you come from a line of scholars, you would probably be more exposed to learning. If your dad works out a lot, it might rub off on you too.

I would see the dynastic traditions promoting a certain trait as also being that in that family there is a tradition for caring about developing that trait.

 

[Kiara-Liam]

While I don't really agree with OP, I think that @noknok has an interisting idea in the second post.
And with the whole trait, yeah, I think most of them should be visible to everybody, but some of them rather not. Like the 'master seducer' from CK2?
If get caught all the time, you are certainly not a master at it, and if you don't get caught, that's nothing you would like to advertise. Same with most of the intrigue stuff.
maybe a classify some of the traits as 'private', so only certin characters can see them? Might also play nice with the new hook system

 

[Maldazar]

I understand where this comes from, BUT I think that removing the traits / stats from the game (or making them invisible) would just destroy the entire game.. here are some reasons:

- How would it work with the bonus you get from stats? (like to income, etc) These would also have to be hidden, else you would just 'check' the stats based on bonus percentage that you are getting (or that your enemy is getting from his counselers). But, hidding that means you can't show your current money either, else people will calculate based on that the income increase based on modifiers... So basicly, if you REALLY want to remove all stats from being visible, you need to hide almost every number in the game... basicly removing the entire GAME element of the game.. Else the only thing you are doing is making that information harder to discover (a lame chore of checking modifiers and calculating it based on that)

- Also, if you hide al stats you remove decisions from the game, basicly there is no reason to marry anyone that isn't giving you the best claim/reward, since you can't see other benefits..

So, no, the stats are too important for the game, they are what makes the game, really hidding them is impossible without hiding basicly every information that makes this game a game... and not hidding them completely just means you are making it very anoying to see them (you need to calculate) and that is just frustrating for players and a non fun mechanic..

 

[Kiara-Liam]

I understand where this comes from, BUT I think that removing the traits / stats from the game (or making them invisible) would just destroy the entire game.. here are some reasons:

- How would it work with the bonus you get from stats? (like to income, etc) These would also have to be hidden, else you would just 'check' the stats based on bonus percentage that you are getting (or that your enemy is getting from his counselers). But, hidding that means you can't show your current money either, else people will calculate based on that the income increase based on modifiers... So basicly, if you REALLY want to remove all stats from being visible, you need to hide almost every number in the game... basicly removing the entire GAME element of the game.. Else the only thing you are doing is making that information harder to discover (a lame chore of checking modifiers and calculating it based on that)

- Also, if you hide al stats you remove decisions from the game, basicly there is no reason to marry anyone that isn't giving you the best claim/reward, since you can't see other benefits..

So, no, the stats are too important for the game, they are what makes the game, really hidding them is impossible without hiding basicly every information that makes this game a game... and not hidding them completely just means you are making it very anoying to see them (you need to calculate) and that is just frustrating for players and a non fun mechanic..

I think we have to differenciate between stats and traits here.
For the stats themself (martial, intrigue, learning,...) I don't think we need number values. A more general description would do better for immersion and would make gameplay more reasonable. You would know if someone is (garbage, bad, mediocre, good,...) at something and not that that someone is 23 at something.
For the other things, yeah, you could deduct some of the values, but maybe not all from other stats, like income and so on (most characters don't have these anyway).
For the traits, most of them should be visible, because the characters are known for them. That beatiful girl from the next duchy? would make sense if you see her beatifull trait. That she is a great plotter and likes killing people? only if you heard of it somehow (hook system), or if she failed at it so many times, that everybody knows it.

If some stats are hidden to some other characters, and also some traits from their lifestyles, than deducting actual values becomes impossible.

 

[Maldazar]

I honestly believe that people are SAYING they want hidden stats because they have never played with hidden stats, but at the moment they would indeed implement this, people would get anoyed because 'there is too much hidden information that I need to calculate'. Stats are just too important for the entire gameplay, just think about all the modifiers that counselers add for every given job. Think of all the influence that your, your spouces, your comanders, stats have in the game.. If you would make that all hidden the game would just become a chore and I think people would quickly ask to show those values again...

 

[Arona]

I like genetics and its intresting game mechanic what is already atractive to play. But i think in CK3 it should be handled otherwise, not to give flat bonuses to character but. Have hidden effects . Atractive could give hidden diplomacy bonus on event ad otherwise. Genius or imbecile could give bonuses and peneltys on developing skills or perks. Like original perk getting changes is 0.3 genius could give another 0.12 and quick could give like adional 0.08 point bonus as negative genetical traits could decrase normal learning speed.

Thought iw wold be harder to make so. I think atribute system what we have now should be changes , now we have atribute system on 1-100 scale and in lower levels there is not much differents. But would be nice to have also decimial system like you have martial 11.78 and it still developing couse you have developing potential or if you reach old age and start getting penaltys then stats start to detoriate slowly if you dont have "cure" for it.

 

[Dayvit78]

If you're worried about people DNA-shopping for their spouse, then you're attacking the wrong problem. Whether we can see or not see the stats is irrelevant. What's relevant is "who do you want to marry?" If the answers is always "whoever has the best stats," then the game has failed.

There should be more importance paid to historical reasons for marriage - to secure alliances, to add territory, to get a claim. Thereby, you don't care whether the spouse is a good steward or whatnot, since the other things should be much more valuable. That is what Paradox needs to get right in CK3. The only thing you should actively avoid are old women and impotent characters since without an heir, you don't get the benefit of the marriage (your claims will fall back to the other family, the kingdom will breakup after your death, etc).

 

[Arona]

If you're worried about people DNA-shopping for their spouse, then you're attacking the wrong problem. Whether we can see or not see the stats is irrelevant. What's relevant is "who do you want to marry?" If the answers is always "whoever has the best stats," then the game has failed.

There should be more importance paid to historical reasons for marriage - to secure alliances, to add territory, to get a claim. Thereby, you don't care whether the spouse is a good steward or whatnot, since the other things should be much more valuable. That is what Paradox needs to get right in CK3. The only thing you should actively avoid are old women and impotent characters since without an heir, you don't get the benefit of the marriage (your claims will fall back to the other family, the kingdom will breakup after your death, etc).

I disagree with that statement. main historical reason wasent to get claims by marriage. Main reason was alliance not only war alliance but also diplomatic/political alliances this was especially for lower nobles who wished to rise in society and reason two was wealth transver/merge stats/capabilty is only for tool for thouse.

marriage wasent just union between husband and wife but union between bride and groom family so bride brothers, uncles father also helped they kin husband family out in society couse it was also useful for them.

And historically there were 2 kind of brides thouse who were useful alliances but as wife they were useless
and thouse who were matriach/ lady in the house who lead and controlled household who command were law in servant eyes and they always knew better.

 

[Woifee]

I disagree with that statement. main historical reason wasent to get claims by marriage. Main reason was alliance not only war alliance but also diplomatic/political alliances this was especially for lower nobles who wished to rise in society and reason two was wealth transver/merge stats/capabilty is only for tool for thouse.

marriage wasent just union between husband and wife but union between bride and groom family so bride brothers, uncles father also helped they kin husband family out in society couse it was also useful for them.

And historically there were 2 kind of brides thouse who were useful alliances but as wife they were useless
and thouse who were matriach/ lady in the house who lead and controlled household who command were law in servant eyes and they always knew better.

Luckily marriage for alliance and marriage for claims are often the same thing

 

[Ezumiyr]

Genetics should definitely not be available to every single character. For example, it can require 10 learning first with a scholarship focus (possibly with the genetics subroute in CK3), and if you successfully complete it you get the benefit of seeing the genetic traits - perhaps with some additional mechanics added (maybe being able to see couple compatibility and the best match for passing on the genes). This way it can be quite a fun addition to the game.

Genetics in CK are a mix of actual genetics and perception.
You don't always actually see the genes of other people. You see when they are a dwarf or an albino, for sure. But otherwise you just know that they are smart or beautiful.

It would make absolutely ZERO sense to be able to see "couple compatibility" or "best genetic matches" - which is nothing less than an eugenist dream by the way. Something you would find in Gattaca and other works of science fiction.

 

[Kanaric]

I honestly believe that people are SAYING they want hidden stats because they have never played with hidden stats, but at the moment they would indeed implement this, people would get anoyed because 'there is too much hidden information that I need to calculate'. Stats are just too important for the entire gameplay, just think about all the modifiers that counselers add for every given job. Think of all the influence that your, your spouces, your comanders, stats have in the game.. If you would make that all hidden the game would just become a chore and I think people would quickly ask to show those values again...

Well given how much this guy is downvoted it's safe to say that he is wrong. Nobody wants that, sorry OP.

 

[Dayvit78]

I disagree with that statement. main historical reason wasent to get claims by marriage. Main reason was alliance not only war alliance but also diplomatic/political alliances
And historically there were 2 kind of brides thouse who were useful alliances but as wife they were useless
and thouse who were matriach/ lady in the house who lead and controlled household who command were law in servant eyes and they always knew better.

I specifically said for alliance. In fact, it was the first reason I gave. So I think we're not really disagreeing on that part.

However your second part, I don't agree with. Nobody married specifically so that there would be a matriarch - "oh she looks like a good boss of the household, I think I'll marry her" said nobody ever. A woman coming to dominate the household was simply due to her own agency and personality and the fact that the man was often out to war, so she would "rule the house" in his place, while at the same time developing relationships that would give her further power (again depending on her own personality and ambitions).

 

[Razmorg]

I agree that it's a gamey situation where you can sniff out perfect characters and play god. Personally I hope they do a kind of slightly limited information system so you can't as easily game the system and google search the next einstein in-game. But frankly I could see it being tough and I think it could potentially lead to the game feeling more dead when you can't just check on cool random people and get so much fun information. So on one hand I could see it being good for a more immersive experience and on the other hand I'm afraid that it might ruin your in-game potential to see and experience everything that goes on in the game as you play.

So TL;DR I agree with OP that google vision is immersion breaking but I'm VERY afraid it might ruin more good if you remove it just to make min-maxers more challenged as you lose insight into the fun shit that goes on in the game.