Poland

[yourworstnightm]

One of the old powers that seem to be left is Poland. Poland is in Abe a small nation defeated by the Teutonic Order. However Poland seems to be diploannexed a lot by Hungary or TO early, an especially if Hungary diploannex them in the early 1500s (which is not unusual) the power in central europe is quite upset. I'm not saying Hungary shouldn't go for Poland, just saying they shouldn't go early. I'm thinking that since the Lithuanian empire in Abe history was pagan, that was probably because they was not influnced by the poles, if they were not influenced by the poles, the poles was probably not even before the Teutonic victory a major player in the area. If I remember medieval history correctly Poland was sometime in the high middle ages split in a couple of independent duchies. What if Poland never managed to reemerge, and all of Poland outside Teutonic Order would be minors. (This would of course make the TO go for a crazy annexation war and gain a lot off bb and screw up the whole region, but Hungary could get events for protecting the polish duchies, making TO and Hungary fight over Poland for a long time).

 

[Incompetent]

It is a balance issue if Hungary annexes Poland. Unfortunately this is encouraged rather than discouraged by events, as Hungary can inherit Poland by event if Poland goes Reformed. This event can go, and we can probably kill off Hungary's option of Polish culture as well. I've also put some inheritance events in for the TO to take over Poland. Perhaps these can be made a little easier, so the TO tends to take over Poland before the Reformation.

Making Poland a mess of minors, however, will probably hurt the TO rather than help, because minors are much more of a handful than a single country with 5 or so provinces. Poland would end up as an extension of the HRE mayhem, with everyone and his dog getting Polish provinces, often in such a way that the TO can't fight conclusive wars against them. For example, if say Luxembourg owns Luxembourg and Wielkopolska, the TO can't reach Luxembourg proper in order to get a decisive victory. This is less likely to happen if Poland is in moderate shape, so that only majors tend to attack it.

 

[yourworstnightm]

The Luxembourg dynasty had some claims in Poland. And they were ruling in Hungary at the same time, so military alliance with Hungary in the beginning could scare TO off. What if we also give Kustrin or Poznan to Luxembourg, that would make it a 3 province medium power allied with a major. Events to prevent an early Hungarian diploannexation of luxembourg would be necessary though. (Perhaps possibilities for Hungary to sell the claim on Luxembourg to Bavaria or Swabia which would hav a hard way to share a border with them).

 

[unmerged(38537)]

The Luxembourg dynasty had some claims in Poland. And they were ruling in Hungary at the same time, so military alliance with Hungary in the beginning could scare TO off.

It isn't all as you think, Kind Sir. The Luxembourgs supported Teutonic Order against Poland. Maybe if they had had the Polish throne, they (in my opinion) wouldn't have been interested in Polish lands very much. Maybe they would exchange them for something...

Did anyone think what could happen if queen Jadwiga had married Wilhelm of Habsburg (she got engaged with him - wedding was cancelled because of new pro-Lithuanian policy)?

 

[yourworstnightm]

Well in our timeline there has never been a pro- lithuanian policy. So the Jagellons could never have gained power, so we need to find a new polish dynasty, prefered allied to a major, not Hungary. If we make Poland pro Hungarian there will be an early diploannexation.

 

[unmerged(38537)]

Well in our timeline there has never been a pro- lithuanian policy. So the Jagellons could never have gained power, so we need to find a new polish dynasty, prefered allied to a major, not Hungary. If we make Poland pro Hungarian there will be an early diploannexation.

OK, OK, Kind Sir, but Jadwiga was from the Angevine dynasty (Hungarian line), so please imagine what could happen if her wedding with Wilhelm Habsburg hadn't been cancelled. Wilhelm as duke/king of Poland, pro-Habsburg (so in Aberration - pro-Swabian) policy...
Isn't it a good version?

 

[yourworstnightm]

Could be, but an alliance with Swabia would make neither Hungary nor the Order tremble in fear. Nether would an vassaltion. But what if the Habsburgs had inherited the polish throne, and Poland would start as a part of Swabia (this would overpower Swabia, forget it). If we somehow could split up Poland, maybe in a habsburg fraction (owned by Swabia) and a Luxembourg fraction (owned by Luxembourg, allied to Hungary). Luxembourg could also be an early medium power in the lowlands to stop too early Bavarian occupation (we could give them an additional province there).

 

[unmerged(21937)]

It should be Poland owning Swabia, not the other way around, if the two are in personal union. Poland was a kingdom, Swabia just a duchy.

 

[yourworstnightm]

I suppose you're right, but what if the Habsburgs decided to rule from Swabia, then we're back with an independent Poland allied to Swabia (at least Hungary can't diplannex it now), with events for toghtening Swabian controll (never annexation, only vassalation events, and claims if Poland fall).

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Still, if Jagiello does not marry Hedwiga, she's pretty free to marry any appropriate ruler you consider good one. A possibility, that would alter Hungary as well, would be to have Sigismund marry Hedwiga instead of Mary and therefore become king of Poland instead of king of Hungary. Mary could then go and marry someone else, like a Hungarian noble. Some ancestor of Janos Hunyadi perhaps?

 

[yourworstnightm]

Yeah, I know, but there's no need to mess up Hungary, let them keep their luxembourg monarchs. I guess the non- lithuanian Poland will be a hard task to complete, but nevertheless an important one.

 

[unmerged(38537)]

So let's think what would have happened, if the district disruption ("rozbicie dzielnicowe" in Polish - maybe I've wrongly translated it into English; if I'm right, let any Pole correct it; thank You) hadn't ended by unification of the country by Wladyslaw Lokietek. Maybe the dukes of Glogow (after Wladyslaw Lokietek the strongest in early 1300s and his main enemies) could win making Silesia regional power?

 

[yourworstnightm]

Hmm, but I guess Silesia is not that important for Bohemia, Silesia could then be a Luxembourg oriented duchy, and would have an nice rival. We could give Silesia Wilekopolska and Poznan, while we then have Krakow, Galich and Podlasia left for the rival.

 

[unmerged(38537)]

We could give Silesia Wilekopolska and Poznan (...)

Of course, Kind Sir. This possiblity has some historical reasons. Princes of Glogow, especially Henryk III (lived 1260-1309) owned Wielkopolska (but later Wladyslaw Lokietek conquered it).

(...)while we then have Krakow, Galich and Podlasia left for the rival.

Galich? I'd like to remind that Poland inherited it in 1340 (finally in 1366) because of death of the duke Boleslaw Jerzy - his closest relative was Kazimierz III the Great, son of Wladyslaw Lokietek...

 

[yourworstnightm]

We could turn the tables and make the rival Galich, which has expanded north to Podlasia and Krakow, also seeking support from Swabia (marriages has gone a little different and the princes of Galich are related to the Habsburgs). We'll then have a Hungarian supported Silesia and a Swabian supported Galich, both competing for the polish throne.

 

[yourworstnightm]

When I think about it would be more logic to make Silesia the Swabia´n friendly faction and Galich the more Hungarian friendly faction, anyway they should both have claims on the polish throne, which can be inherited by Swabia and Hungary in the early 1600s. If the order annex them, Swabia and Hungary can protest and press claims earlier. Swabia and Hungary could both be very interresting in getting their candidate on the Polish throne, and later start to compete for it themselves.

 

[Incompetent]

Hang on a minute. Does the TO get a look in here? At the moment the plan is that Poland starts independent but soon gets swallowed by the TO, and this seems to work balance-wise as the TO's Baltic provinces aren't that rich. As I've recently written a load of Poland-themed events for the TO, I'd rather they were the most likely rulers. Swabian involvement is fine, but Hungary doesn't need any help in getting Poland. They're strong enough as it is, and if they get Poland, they usually go on to crush the TO and Ukraine as well, making a mess of any balance of power in the East.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Hang on a minute. Does the TO get a look in here? At the moment the plan is that Poland starts independent but soon gets swallowed by the TO, and this seems to work balance-wise as the TO's Baltic provinces aren't that rich. As I've recently written a load of Poland-themed events for the TO, I'd rather they were the most likely rulers. Swabian involvement is fine, but Hungary doesn't need any help in getting Poland. They're strong enough as it is, and if they get Poland, they usually go on to crush the TO and Ukraine as well, making a mess of any balance of power in the East.

TO should go for Poland in the beginning, but if they don't, which they tend not to, then Hungary and Swabia start compete for the throne. I wanted to remove Poland since it's a Vanilla major and Hungary diploannex it easy, two medium powers that should start to war echother often is better, and probably easy for the order, since Hungary only can ally one of them if they constantly hate eachother. Swabian inheritance should happen in the 1600s if Silesia (silesia, wielkopolska, poznan) still exist, triggering the polish ressurection events for Swabia, swabian support events, but not directly invovement event could happen earlier. For Hungary they should be able to annex Galich (Galich, krakow, podlasia) in the early 1600s if they still exist, and if Hungary has polish culture. Then Hungary start to get the polish ressurection events too. However the order should be able to conquer Poland in the beginning and freeze both Hungarian and Swabian events for polish invovements. also the ressurection of Poland shouldn't mean core on and of Poland. for Swabia it could just be krakowv and the silesia provinces, and for Hungary the galizian start provinces and possibly Silesia.

It should be easier for the order now, since Hungary can only be allied to one of these factions (should be Galich) making silesia with only passive Swabian support an easy target.

 

[unmerged(38537)]

And what about Kustrin? In Aberration it is an independent state (why?), historically it was conquered by Brandenburg (in the 14th century, as I remember).
What do You think about making Kustrin still a part of Silesia?

Silesia together with Swabia? Incompetent posted one time (in my thread "New Order in Central Europe" - yourworstnightm, have You ever read my ideas about Poland which were there?) that Swabia and Hansa could in the Hussite wars' period form a pragmatic pro-Hussite coalition.
So if we merge Incompetent's ideas with Your plans, yourworstnightm, we can gain such a situation: Silesian Piasts together with the Hussites...
This is slightly strange, don't You think? This dynasty disliked them, only Boleslaw V Woloszek, prince of Prudnik and Glogowek (lived 1400-1460), cooperated with them from 1428 (when he converted to Hussitism) to the end of his life.

 

[Culise]

Well, an event chain could allow for Swabia to support the Hussites, which could and would alienate the Poles, or acknowledge the Polish constituencies in Silesia. Or, in true tradition, they could play both sides, funneling a little bit of aid to the Hussites where they can, possibly via their Hansa partners, while vocally denouncing them in public. Potential for serious embarassment if discovered, and it will make both sides a little suspicious, but it won't automatically close any doors.