Preparing for Charlemagne

[richvh]

What cultures/religions should start with Charlemagne DLC style tribal holdings? I'm thinking at the minimum steppe and saharan types.

More topics once we know more what's in the next patch.

 

[DarkReborn]

The ideal thing would be using them for all the realms that use tribal mechanics, since the Devs mentioned that upgrading it will cost prestige. This would mean that we (or rather, poor, poor Riknap) would have to make a new building tech tree based on the concept behind the tribal holdings; they provide a LOT of troops, not so much money.

Also, maybe SELIN would need a rebalance as well; I guess that tribal holdings would need a different set of modifiers and such.


We don't know much yet on if it's a cultural or a religious thing, so we best wait till making any decisions.

 

[riknap]

The ideal thing would be using them for all the realms that use tribal mechanics, since the Devs mentioned that upgrading it will cost prestige. This would mean that we (or rather, poor, poor Riknap) would have to make a new building tech tree based on the concept behind the tribal holdings; they provide a LOT of troops, not so much money.

Also, maybe SELIN would need a rebalance as well; I guess that tribal holdings would need a different set of modifiers and such.


We don't know much yet on if it's a cultural or a religious thing, so we best wait till making any decisions.

we at least agree on this. let me at least have enough time to finish the theocracy buildings first :laugh:

but yeah, they might work on the authority-centric realms. we'll need more information though on how exactly they work first

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

I wouldn's push it with all the realms that might feel "tribal" in Late Antiquity but have no reason to be so in 1066. The Saxons don't need to be tribal, it's a bit ridiculous to assume that a Saxon kingdom in 1066 would still be a tribal confederation like it was in 600 AD.

 

[Numahr]

We made a lot of efforts at defining which religions correspond (beyond the spiritual aspect) to Tribal politics. We decided it would be unreformed "Barbarian", "Celtic", "Norse", "Shamanic" and "Steppe" civilizations. Upon reform, these systems enter into a new political system and leave aside the Tribal politics.

This is now well defined and documented. So I'd say let's keep consistent with our established definition.

@ Cèsar: it means that not all realms, but a large share of them, are tribal. There are two things to be considered here. First, LI maintains elements which "should" have logically disappeared from some areas, and Tribal politics is part of it as much the fact that Celtic paganism is "well and alive", by Shaytana's words. Secondly, and I think this is related, we need to keep away from a "developmentalist" approach caused by our 21st century perspective on things: I mean that for the context of LI, tribal politics should be considered as inherently different, but not necessarily inferior, form of socio-political organization than more institutionalized states. The whole ambition of the Tribal politics system is to make Tribal power less stable, but potentially much more powerful in the hands of a skilled and charismatic (high authority) man or woman. I would like to refer to SELIN's manual linked to in my signature on these features

Which brings me to what Darkreborn said - balancing the whole thing will be key. When TOG arrived, we integrated its features in a way that the option to reform, although a nice gameplay objective, would be even less a necessarily "good" strategy than in Vanilla. So we should have the same philosophy in mind I think.

One way to consider this is to remember the potential for importing Enlil's "migratory CB" which we could link to the Tribal Holdings, thus maybe balancing the weaknesses introduced by that kind of holdings with this interesting opportunity for fluid expansion.

To sum up, I think that we should apply the mechanics to the list we defined for Tribal politics, while using the opportunity to consider re-balancing of existing SELIN mechanics as well as Enlil's migratory CB.

 

[DarkReborn]

I wouldn's push it with all the realms that might feel "tribal" in Late Antiquity but have no reason to be so in 1066. The Saxons don't need to be tribal, it's a bit ridiculous to assume that a Saxon kingdom in 1066 would still be a tribal confederation like it was in 600 AD.

They wouldn't be entirely feudal either... probably something in between. Something like Scandinavia in the Viking Age.
Anyway, it's difficult to classify because LI's 1066 isn't our 1066. Remember that a lot of things were kept "unevolved", as to say, by Shaytana on purpose so that it would make for an interesting set-up.

In any case, we have a clear classification on who's a tribal ( "prestige based realm" if you prefer ) thanks to SELIN, so I suggest we use it.
All points towards the tribal holdings being a cultural thing rather than religious (Christian Ireland is getting them), so... as I said, let's wait before making any decisions.

EDIT: Numahr explained what I wanted to explain much clearer, so better have a look at his post.

And sure, the migration CB can be ported, but it might need a few tweaks. I'll get to that soon.