Proposal - New Westeros Borders

[Almaron]

I posted something about this a while back ( https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/alternate-province-borders-concept.833147/ ), but I've only just got around to revisiting it...after the World of Ice and Fire book came out and revealed a completely different set of borders for the Seven Kingdoms, I decided I wanted to add them to my version of the Game of Thrones mod, so I edited the various maps together (which took a lot of effort, as they didn't actually line up at all, and there were discrepancies between maps) and traced over them to get the outline of the new borders. While doing that, I also found an interesting page where somebody had drawn over the same maps and speculated where each of the various nobles would have lived. I traced over these as well and then edited them to try and get all the existing provinces in the game, and to also get borders that would suit the lesser Kingdoms that existed prior to the formation of the Seven Kingdoms (and ones that would look good when duchies drifted).

Anyway, I foolishly didn't finish a province map at the time, but I've rectified that mistake; here is the new map. http://sta.sh/01og8swgbjw7

And here's how it looks in-game;

I think they look pretty good, even if I do say so myself (aside from that naff Crownland blob in the middle of the Stormlands)! Now, I should note that the provinces file alone has been edited at this point in time; if this was to be implemented, the positions of each shield and whatnot would need to be redone (a tad arduous, but not impossible), the de jure borders adjusted (easy) and the history of a few areas updated, as I actually shifted around a few provinces while doing this. I'd offer to do this, but my schedule is a bit iffy at the moment and I doubt I'd have the spare time to devote myself to fixing it all...

Right, now as it is 2am, I'm going to stop editing this and go to bed...but I hope you guys find this useful in some way!

 

[Almaron]

Alrighty, did some quick modding (har har, it took several hours) to get the de jure borders more or less accurate; here's how it looks now!

There's still a few errors to fix, and I think a few new Duchies could be added here and there (added Rook's Rest and three River Duchies in the Riverlands)...but it's a start! The good thing is that for the bulk of the game, the de facto borders stay the same, so even though a couple of counties have been swapped around, it shouldn't take that much work to adjust the history files to suit this. Moving all the shields around will also be a hassle, but doable.

Say, for the pre-Aegon start date, part of me thinks that the Seven Kingdoms should be broken up into some of the smaller ones that made them up, just to make things more interesting. The World of Ice and Fire book lists a LOT of Kingdoms that existed prior to the formation of the modern Seven Kingdoms, and since the start date doesn't go that far back, the only way we'll really get the chance to play them is if they're added at this point in time. When Aegon (or another character) invades, though, the same event that replaces the de_jure Empires with the Iron Throne could replace these earlier Kingdoms with the modern Seven Kingdoms. Thoughts on this? Oh, and any ideas for new Duchies or border changes?

 

[IratePirate-]

I really hope somebody does this. An Age of Petty Kings start date would be great.

 

[Almaron]

If I do get it finished, I'll be sure to upload all the altered files here, it's just that I can't guarantee when I will finish it as a result of RL getting in the way of things. I am making good progress on it, though; editing the history files turned out to be even easier than expected, so there's only a few left, then it's just a case of fixing the placement of the shields and whatnot, and also tweaking some of the new stuff added in, and then it'll be ready for playing...

 

[Galaahd]

I really hope somebody does this. An Age of Petty Kings start date would be great.

Indeed.

 

[ramblymanguthri]

It looks pretty great, but is it showing all duchies? There's a few I can't find, did they get removed?

 

[Galaahd]

The only thing I don't like is the border between the North and the Riverlands / Vale. That straight line is kinda ugly imho, and not very medieval-like.

What marks the border between the North and the Riverlands anyway, by canon?

 

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I really hope somebody does this. An Age of Petty Kings start date would be great.

I think it'd have to be a sub-mod, due to the valyrian problem. Still, It'd be nice.

 

[Almaron]

It looks pretty great, but is it showing all duchies? There's a few I can't find, did they get removed?

Yes, I took The Trident and The Roseroad out; the latter because with the provinces moved around, the duchy was too small to warrant adding, and the former because it was too big and the borders strange. One thing I tried to do with this map is adjust the borders of the provinces and Duchies so that they could drift easily and thus potentially change the borders of the Seven Kingdoms, so breaking the Trident up into component states allows for...well, it gives some Lords the chance to expand themselves, and it also means that a powerful Kingdom of Mountain and Vale could potentially capture the east bank of the Blue Fork (on that note, since there's no crossing along the Blue Fork except at either end, it seemed wrong to have part of the Duchy spanning it in the middle...).

 

[Almaron]

The only thing I don't like is the border between the North and the Riverlands / Vale. That straight line is kinda ugly imho, and not very medieval-like.

What marks the border between the North and the Riverlands anyway, by canon?

That is the canon border, from the World of Ice and Fire book (as seen in the maps here; http://sta.sh/21sxm72tpwqf?edit=1 , originally from here; http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119926-political-maps-of-the-seven-kingdoms/ ). It is a bit ugly, but considering there's a giant swamp in the area, it makes sense they might have just drawn a straight line on the map to save time.

I think it'd have to be a sub-mod, due to the valyrian problem. Still, It'd be nice.

Yeah...still, on that note, I'm also thinking it could be fun to create a historical "Kingdom/Empire of Valyria" that's impossible to form (well, unless you're using console codes) but which is simply there as an extra touch to the history sections...

 

[ramblymanguthri]

Yes, I took The Trident and The Roseroad out; the latter because with the provinces moved around, the duchy was too small to warrant adding, and the former because it was too big and the borders strange. One thing I tried to do with this map is adjust the borders of the provinces and Duchies so that they could drift easily and thus potentially change the borders of the Seven Kingdoms, so breaking the Trident up into component states allows for...well, it gives some Lords the chance to expand themselves, and it also means that a powerful Kingdom of Mountain and Vale could potentially capture the east bank of the Blue Fork (on that note, since there's no crossing along the Blue Fork except at either end, it seemed wrong to have part of the Duchy spanning it in the middle...).

I figured as much... I was just playing in the Roseroad area so I noticed it was gone immediately. It's a shame, I really think that flag looks great. Splitting up the Trident makes sense though, it's a very powerful (at least on a glnce) but also spread out duchy.

 

[Minchandre]

The only thing I don't like is the border between the North and the Riverlands / Vale. That straight line is kinda ugly imho, and not very medieval-like.

What marks the border between the North and the Riverlands anyway, by canon?

The Neck, a relatively narrow isthmus that is conveniently almost entirely swamp and is said to be almost completely impassable and unproductive (the residents are apparently more tribal subsistence hunter-gatherers than proper feudal agriculturalists). The precise boundaries of the Neck aren't particularly well defined, but all of it is considered to be part of the North (even though much of it south of Moat Cailin, the "gate to the North".

Since the land is considered unproductive, I doubt there's a discrete boundary; and as long as the Tullys don't try to push into land that the Reeds consider to be theirs, I doubt there will ever be one (maybe once Westeros centralizes and begins to industrialize and the Neck is drained...)

 

[Rifal]

Looks mostly good but the border between d_winterfell and d_dreadfort is atrocious. Winterfell itself sits pretty much on the border wich just strikes me as wrong.

 

[Almaron]

Yeah, it's a bit naff; I'm working on altering the borders a bit in places...I drew this before the Telltale game revealed where Ironrath and Highpoint were meant to be, and so that threw off some of my old established borders...

 

[Almaron]

Hmm, looks like I may actually finish this fairly soon after all! Most of the nudging is done - well, done enough for a beta stage - and I've updated most of the code to accommodate my changes, all that's left are little things here and there to fix...so I should be able to upload a test version here later this week! Oh, and ramblymanguthri, you'll be happy to hear that I've worked the Roseroad back into the game as a Duchy.

On a similar topic, I recently decided the Vale's borders as I'd drawn them were quite ugly (the original map, as you'll see, lacked the mountains), and while revising the borders and doing some research for new Duchies to add in, I was reminded of my old idea to include a bunch of the old Petty Kingdoms of Westeros as De Jure Kingdoms for the Pre-Targaryen era, just to make things more interesting if the larger Kingdoms ended up fragmenting. While looking at the borders, I noticed that I could potentially divide the Vale into a "Kingdom of the Fingers", consisting of the Northern part of the Vale, a "Kingdom of the Mountains of the Moon", consisting of Strongsong, the Eyrie and Wickenden, and a "Kingdom of the Vale", consisting of everything else. All three of these Kingdoms did exist at varying points in Westeros' past (and were in fact held together by the last King before the Arryns showed up), and restoring them...well, obviously it'd make for more interesting scenarios.

The only problem is finding enough Kingdoms to cover all of Westeros...the World of Ice and Fire book notes that the Reach is made up of four parts; the Reach Proper, The Western Marches, Oldtown and the Arbor, but the problem with that is that the Reach proper is still massive. The North and Dorne are also tough, since their duchies correspond with their Kingdoms, and places like the Riverlands would require speculation because while the northern part could be turned into a Kingdom of the Trident, the south part lacks a name...unless we went for a fictional Kingdom of the God's Eye. We'd probably need to do that, actually (a Kingdom of the Blackwater and a Kingdom of Massey's Hook in the Crownlands alongside the Kingdom of Crackclaw Point, and the Stormlands could probably have a Kingdom of the Marches and a Kingdom of the Rainwood alongside a Kingdom of Shipbreaker Bay)...hmm, any ideas for de jure Kingdoms?

 

[Doukan]

Very nice indeed, the mod's current map is of great quality of course, but I'd say this one "fits" much better.
Aside from the Vale's western boundary being too straight, the only thing that bothers me would be that ugly little triangle on the Crownlands/Reach/Riverlands border, the triangle itself isn't too bad, but that it's across the river makes my eyes bleed

 

[Almaron]

I know, it's ugly, but I can't bring myself to change it because it's the canon borders from the World of Ice and Fire book...but I've been incredibly tempted to do so!