Question about Poland

[Halibutt]

I can prepare all the OOBs, leader lists, minister files and events. However, first i need to know whether Poland will be playable at all. Two ways come to my mind:

Puppets in HoI usually mean semi-independent states, that preserved their internal governments and had a certain level of political authonomy. Until 1918 Poland theoretically was a Russian puppet, although with much less authonomy than, for instance, Vichy France or Slovakia. We can make Poland playable from the beginning as a puppet with Congressional Kingdom borders, no own army (Russian units stationed there from the beginning, the AI will probably leave them there until forced out by the Germans and A-H) and high dissent (20% constantly), maybe with land-locked convoys to Russia as well to make it impossible for it to build any units. This would make re-creation of real, independent Poland after the dissolution of all the partitioners much easier.

OTOH we can treat Congressional Kingdom simply as a integral part of Russia. Later it could be created by a set of events (collapse of the Central Powers and external factors - Wilson! - trigger the Uprisings, Poland created). However, both ways would mean that Poland will be playable only by reloading... If so, then maybe we could make additional scenario (1918-1924) based on the same system, the same OOBs and minister files as the original 1914-1924 TGW, but focused mostly on Central Europe. Turkey vs. Greece, Civil War in Russia, foreign intervention in Russia, Polish-Bolshevik War, Polish-Czechoslovak conflict and so on...

What do you think?
Cheers

 

[unmerged(16020)]

I like the idea of the 1918-24 scenario the best. It seems easier than with the Polish puppet state (which would have to be non-selectable otherwise a human would cancel those land convoys).

 

[Shadow Knight]

The copy I have (the team only version) does not have an independent or puppeted Poland, it is part of Russia. If I recall I think it is planned to have Poland as a possible state if Germany gets the Brest-Litovsk Treaty on Russia.

Feel free to post what information you have, if it is used then we have it. If not used right away it could be used later.

 

[StephenT]

Poland as an integral part of Russia in 1914 is the simplest solution - we also have Hungary as an integral part of Austria-Hungary, Bavaria as an integral part of Germany (even though it had its own king and a separate army), etc.

I've been investigating what it would take to create Poland as a separate entity: so far I've got this:

From top to bottom, we have Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania (with its 1917 borders), Byelorussia, Poland (ie Congress Poland), Ukraine, and in the south Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. The province of Kars should also be part of Armenia. Let me know if anyone thinks the borders are wrong!

There would be a Russian event in 1917 creating all these countries. I'd say there should also be a parallel German event allowing them to create the countries as puppets, if they control the relevent territories at the time (as, historically, they did).

After that, further events would need to handle the Russo-Polish war, Polish claims on the Vilnius province, the Polish Corridor/Danzig, etc. If you can lend a hand, great!

 

[Allenby]

In my opinion, Poland should appear only after Versailles, with it's creation as a proper nation-state.

If there is to be any add-on scenario, perhaps it should begin in 1917 with the beginning of the Russian revolution, and at a time when the war between the Allies and Central Powers was by no means a forgone conclusion.

 

[Kaiser Bill]

Originally posted by Allenby
In my opinion, Poland should appear only after Versailles, with it's creation as a proper nation-state.

If there is to be any add-on scenario, perhaps it should begin in 1917 with the beginning of the Russian revolution, and at a time when the war between the Allies and Central Powers was by no means a forgone conclusion.

Allenby's solution seems to make the best sense. Without the collapse of Tsarism Poland would be unlikely to gain any autonomy which would constitute evem puppet status.

 

[StephenT]

I tend to agree Poland would only appear if Russia collapsed - but I also think a Russian collapse was an extremely likely event!

However, giving Germany the option to make Poland a puppet state doesn't seem unreasonable, even if we make this the ahistorical "option b" choice. The war aims of Kaiser Wilhelm's Germany seemed to be more annexing small bits of territory (the Saarland, Livonia, Belgium) and turning the rest of their conquests into puppet states, rather than a Hitlerian "annex the world and turn it into Lebensraum for the Herrenvolk" type of thing.

 

[Kaiser Bill]

Originally posted by StephenT
I tend to agree Poland would only appear if Russia collapsed - but I also think a Russian collapse was an extremely likely event!

However, giving Germany the option to make Poland a puppet state doesn't seem unreasonable, even if we make this the ahistorical "option b" choice. The war aims of Kaiser Wilhelm's Germany seemed to be more annexing small bits of territory (the Saarland, Livonia, Belgium) and turning the rest of their conquests into puppet states, rather than a Hitlerian "annex the world and turn it into Lebensraum for the Herrenvolk" type of thing.

True, the Kaiser would have been happier with a MittelAfrika than a pan european Reich. That said, huge tracts of territory were stripped from Russia at Brest-Litovsk. But then, they were roundly defeated and utterly incapable of seriously resisting I suppose.

The formation of a Puppet Poland still seems an option, but what about A-H? They would have to be granted some fiefdom in Poland surely? Maybe A-H gets some annexed territory and Germany puppets the rest...

 

[StephenT]

Originally posted by Kaiser Bill
That said, huge tracts of territory were stripped from Russia at Brest-Litovsk. But then, they were roundly defeated and utterly incapable of seriously resisting I suppose.

To be exact, Russia was forced to recognise the independent governments of Ukraine and Finland, and surrender all claims to the territories already occupied by Germany - which Germany was already organising into puppet Polish and Lithuanian states.

The formation of a Puppet Poland still seems an option, but what about A-H? They would have to be granted some fiefdom in Poland surely? Maybe A-H gets some annexed territory and Germany puppets the rest...

Well, Austria already controls about a quarter of the historical Polish territory, but historically all of Russian Poland was incorporated into the German puppet state. I suppose we may need to account for a player-controlled A-H defeating Russia single-handedly while Germany does nothing - so give A-H a copy of the German event creating Poland, triggered if they hold certain key Polish cities after a certain date.

 

[Halibutt]

Now then... History of Poland is somehow complicated, as it practically popped out without any help or opposition from the abroad. But there were other options as all sides fought for the brains and hearts of Poles promising them independence in exchange for recruits. Historically:

In 1914:
- Incorporation of all the russian-ocupied territories into Austria-Hungary and create a tri-partite state with Poland as a third part. Franz Josef supported the plan, but was extremely anxious to unite polish lands because he feared prussian reaction.
- Incorporation of non-russian territories and creation of a 'Independent State' with russian tsar as a king (the same way it was with Congressional Kingdom). Russian Foreign Affairs Minister prepared a plan (in 1914) to establish new eastern borders on the Oder river. The Tsar, however, didn't make any promises. Even in 1915, when he already lost control over his part of Poland, he spoke only of 'unification'.

- But then 'The Act of 5'th November' happened in 1916 - a common declaration of both Kaisers. They agreed upon creation of Poland as a heredary monarchy, but with a constitutional system, allied to the Central Powers, with its own army and government. It would still be a puppet of Germany, however this was a chance as it started a 'who will give more' race. First polish quasi-government was created in Warsaw and Pilsudski planned to make his underground organisation (POW - Polish Military Organisation) become a core of the future army.
- December 1916, Italy supports the idea of re-creation of Poland after the war, Tsar in response to the 'Act of November the 5'th' promises to create Poland after the war, but soon he abdicates.
- The reds (petersburg Council of Delegates) and Provisional Government support the idea of independent Poland. The earlier- unconditional, the latter - with an alliance with Russia. This opened lots of new possibilities, as there were more than 500.000 Poles in russian army and additional 100.000 of polish POWs. In 1917 three polish Corps were created in Byelorussia.
- France finally starts to support the idea in 1917, polish army is created in France. Soon after France gives control over those units to KNP (National Polish Commity) formed in Paris. Until december 1917 all Entente countries (USA included) consider the Commity as an 'official representation of Poland'.
- The central powers tried to forget about the promises given in 1915, so Pilsudski and his three brigades formed started to disobey german orders and were taken POW. This was a great political manoeuvre as in 1917 it was already clear who is going to win the war. The Germans tried to save the party by creating a 'Regency Council' in Warsaw that was to choose a future polish king.
- Riga treaty didn't change much as it gave the area of Chelm to the future Ukrainian state which caused lot of dissent in Poland and made the majority of Poles leave their dreams about Poland under Germany.
- January 1918 - both Lloyd George and Wilson state that Poland should be created.
- Spring 1918 - Entente tries to bribe Austria-Hungary out of the Central Powers by giving them all polish pre-1772 lands. This however, doesn't happen and the Entente returns to the pro-polish camp
- 7 X 1918 - the Regention Council proclaims polish independence
- 23 X 1918 - A government is created, it starts to take recruits to 'Polnische Wehrmacht' (fighting alongside Germany), but also asks the National Commity in Paris (supported by the Entente!) to become it's representation abroad.
- 28 X 1918 - a provisional government of the formerly-austrian territories is created in Cracow. It disarms most of A-H soldiers and takes control of most of the Gallician cities.
- 6 XI 1918 third government (leftist) is created in Lublin. It manages to halt the revolution.
- 10 XI 1918 Pilsudski returns to Warsaw (released from the Magdeburg stronghold by the revolution). All political parties support him.
- 11 XI 1918 Regency Council gives Pilsudski full control. A telegram is sent to all the major powers announcing the creation of Poland. Most of Central Powers' soldiers are already disarmed by a sort of all-national bloodless uprising. A treaty is signed with german commanders in the east to make them stay on the German-Russian border until Poland will be able to reach the line agreed upon.
21 XI 1918 - First all-national government is created.

That's history, now how to make it into events:
001AUS - control over the lands, Germany supports (action_B for them, to make it even less probable).
A_Make promises
B_Create puppet Poland
C_Promise to create it in the future (triggers_

002RUS - control over part of Poland (Warsaw)
A_Make promises
B_Create puppet Poland (territory of Congress Poland, don't worry, it will soon fall) (historically most of Poles would be more than happy if Tsar would simply give us what was in the constitution before the 1863)

003GER - control over Warsaw
A_Issue the '5th Nov. Act' - creation of puppet Poland with Warsaw only, triggers 004GER, small decrease in dissent
B_Do not make promises we won't keep - small increase in dissent

004GER - treaty of Brest, triggered by 003GER
A_Withdraw from the promises - annex 1province Poland? Or make it stay, but change government later and finally switch sides and gain new territory?
B_We must fulfill the obligations - add new provinces to puppeted Poland and start the series of events concerning Polish-Ukrainian conflict (which was inevitable)

005POL - 004GER, revolution in Germany
A_End puppet status, switch sides and start disarming the Germans
No action_B, as there were really no important loyalists here...

006GER - not exists POL, revolution in Germany, end of the war is nearing and GER is loosing, GER controls Poland
A_We start to loose control over the east - create Poland
B_Suppress the Poles! - trigger 007GER

007GER - 006GER Action_B, revolution in Germany
A_We failed in suppressing the Poles - big dissent hit (soldiers do not want another war)
What would be the Action_B?

008ENG
009USA
010FRA
011ITA - all set on historical dates, no triggers needed
A_support the idea of independent Poland
B_We don't need new countries in the east (was there such a possibility?)

008POL - 009USA, AND OR {008ENG 010FRA}, end of the war is nearing
A_Start disarming the Germans - additional provinces added, a new set of events to simulate the Silesian Uprisings and Grand Poland Uprising
B_We shall wait for a peace conference - dissent, trigger not giving Poland some parts of it at the Versailles treaty

Additional set of events should cover the polish forces creation, reaching the line agreed upon with the german generals in the east and so on. In addition, I'd create a series of ahistorical scenarios (Russia drives straight into Berlin, war ends, no revolution, Poland is created as a puppet of Russia (international pressure), but nothing more.
What do you think, gentlemen?

As to the map, it basically looks all right. The only problem is the Ukraine... Historically, when the Germans created it (well, sort of created) there were several different Ukraines: the Reds, two Ukrainian governments fighting each other, the Whites (Denikin), Frenchmen guarding the new romanian border, various Cossack states and, last but not least, anarchist state of Bat'ka Mahno fighting all of them. I fear that Ukraine would be a tough nut. We'd have to make oversimplifications, but the country created on this map is simply too big. If we can't create several ukraines fighting each other, maybe we should try the event series instead? Like events changing the borders and governments according to who actually controlled Kiev and some other province nearby?

This way finally we'd have Petluras Ukraine pushed out of Kiev and at war with Poland, signing alliance with the latter and later annexed either by Poland (event) or by Soviets.
Cheers

 

[Halibutt]

Originally posted by Allenby
In my opinion, Poland should appear only after Versailles, with it's creation as a proper nation-state.(...)

Et al.
That's not right. Note that Poland wasn't created at the Versailles treaty, AAMoF Poland has already created itself and signed the treaty as one of the participants...

As to the 'Tsars never collapse' scenario: if Russia won in the east, there would be probably no Poland as we know it from history. However it is highly likely that a semi-independent (personal union/puppet in HoI terms) monarchy be created due to international pressure. Otherwise tsars would also have to cope with 2.000.000 of trained and angry Poles returning from the front and POW camps and ready for an uprising. It's outcome would be disputable, but I suppose the Tsar would rather try to avoid it happening...
Cheers

 

[StephenT]

This all sounds great

My only caution would be to not overload the game system with too many events, especially if they will only have minor effects on the game. Not only does that mean somebody's got to write them all, it will also slow down the AI as it has to keep checking them all every day!

So, your events 1 - 3 : do you think there was a genuine chance of the Austrians/Russians/Germans offering Poland genuineautonomy at this point in the war? If yes, the events sound fine; but if it was just propaganda and hot air I wouldn't bother with them. 5 - 6 are fine. For 7, wouldn't it be simpler to just say that when Germany succumbs to revolution, Poland becomes independent automatically? - assume that even if the Germans tried to prevent this, they would fail. I also wouldn't bother with the "Western Powers' response" events - what practical effect would they have? However, the Silesian Uprising event sounds good.

As for Ukraine, I know what you mean. The borders on my map were based on it being a German puppet state, not independent. I quite like the idea of having Makhno as a separate revolter but it does mean creating yet another tiny minor country. As for Denikin, I was thinking he would appear as a revolter from Russia/Soviet Union in the territory south of Rostov/Stalingrad (not inclusive) plus Crimea, and perhaps also lump in the Murmansk and Central Asia regions with his territory. (Siberia would be a separate minor).

However, if Ukraine appears on the map in 1917 with no troops and no supplies, and being still the national territory of Russia/Soviets (and Poland too, thanks to events?), I suspect it will rapidly be fought over by half a dozen foreign armies, and soon disappear from the map. Those successor states which did survive longer than a year or two can have events giving them armies and supplies, and removing Russia's territorial claims over their provinces.

 

[Allenby]

Originally posted by Halibutt
Et al.
That's not right. Note that Poland wasn't created at the Versailles treaty, AAMoF Poland has already created itself and signed the treaty as one of the participants...

Agreed, even so, Poland's appearance in the game ought to exist only after the conclusion of the war, with the defeat of Germany and end of Tsarist Russia, or indeed, with the victory of Germany and Poland appearing as some form of puppet or German-aligned state, keeping in line with Germany's desires for Mitteleuropa.

I also agree with Stephen - it's important that we don't clog the modification with extensive events for countries concerning rather spurious historical 'what ifs?', but keep eventing concerning the creation of Poland etc simple.

I already sense that much of the motivation behind wanting to give various countries a degree of visable semi-autonomy within the game lies in the patriotic instincts of contributors, who would look forward to taking hold of their respective countries in 1914 and expect a fulfilling and eventful game orientated around the happenings of those countries. This has already happened with Finland, with it being given obvious status in the game as a playable state, when in reality, it was as much a major political force in Europe as Bavaria was.

 

[Halibutt]

Originally posted by Allenby
Agreed, even so, Poland's appearance in the game ought to exist only after the conclusion of the war, with the defeat of Germany and end of Tsarist Russia, or indeed, with the victory of Germany and Poland appearing as some form of puppet or German-aligned state, keeping in line with Germany's desires for Mitteleuropa.

I also agree with Stephen - it's important that we don't clog the modification with extensive events for countries concerning rather spurious historical 'what ifs?', but keep eventing concerning the creation of Poland etc simple.

I already sense that much of the motivation behind wanting to give various countries a degree of visable semi-autonomy within the game lies in the patriotic instincts of contributors, who would look forward to taking hold of their respective countries in 1914 and expect a fulfilling and eventful game orientated around the happenings of those countries. This has already happened with Finland, with it being given obvious status in the game as a playable state, when in reality, it was as much a major political force in Europe as Bavaria was.

I agree with most of what you say. Poland should be creared as an independent state in it's historical moment. But don't worry, we've created hundreds of events for our C.O.R.E. project and it did not slow the game. I think that any number of events is acceptable unless we keep it reasonable, HC and balanced. The number of events is not a problem unles you plan to add more than 300 of them for France, Germany and all the other 1914 majors.

Therefore, creating Poland as a 1 province state just for a moment will not make the game slower or unplayable.
Cheers