question on major historical events

[unmerged(16133)]

Mainly this question is on Pearl Harbor, is there an event in the CORE campaign for this? if so where is it located in the files so I could take a look at it, one of the major drawbacks I have seen in HOI is the lack of any event for the replicateing of pearl Harbor in the gameyes the US joins the War but it joins at a level which includes such a large base of it's pacific fleet still at 100% effectiveness that it almost sems like it is overpowering their already huge advantage. allowing for the Japanese AI esspecially against a human player to be over run far too quickly.

I know that a human or computer controlled US will not have his\her's\it's fleet stationed in Hawaii most likely but i feel tha not having some event to signify the full scale hostilities if events proceed down that line is hurting the feel of the game. Now in 5th core MP game and as of yet seen no option for anything even resembling Dec 7thhttp://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif

 

[Steel]

Mainly this question is on Pearl Harbor, is there an event in the CORE campaign for this? if so where is it located in the files so I could take a look at it, one of the major drawbacks I have seen in HOI is the lack of any event for the replicateing of pearl Harbor in the gameyes the US joins the War but it joins at a level which includes such a large base of it's pacific fleet still at 100% effectiveness that it almost sems like it is overpowering their already huge advantage. allowing for the Japanese AI esspecially against a human player to be over run far too quickly.

I know that a human or computer controlled US will not have his\her's\it's fleet stationed in Hawaii most likely but i feel tha not having some event to signify the full scale hostilities if events proceed down that line is hurting the feel of the game. Now in 5th core MP game and as of yet seen no option for anything even resembling Dec 7thhttp://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif

The event scripting language is really limited when it comes to unit interaction which makes it very hard to simulate what took place at Pearl Harbor. It's been discussed quite a lot (see the Far East thread) but so far nobody has come up with a working solution. As a stopgap measure there's an event that get's Japan into the war with the US but it doesn't even attempt to simulate the Pearl Harbor attack.

 

[MateDow]

Mainly this question is on Pearl Harbor, is there an event in the CORE campaign for this?

There is no Pearl Harbor event. It is impossible to get that event in there so that it will have the effect desired. There is no way to pinpoint individual types of units. You could make an event that would eliminate 12 random units. You would be just as likely to have the Japanese destroying a cavalry unit in Kansas as a battleship in Norfolk. There is no way to check and see if the US even has ships based in Hawaii. At the beginning of the game, the US Pacific fleet is still based in California. With no changes by the player or the AI, the Pacific Fleet will be safe and sound in San Pedro while Japanese bombers are tearing up Pearl.

Without better modding tools, it is impossible to create a Pearl Harbor event. MDow

 

[Ghost_dk]

There is no Pearl Harbor event. It is impossible to get that event in there so that it will have the effect desired. There is no way to pinpoint individual types of units. You could make an event that would eliminate 12 random units. You would be just as likely to have the Japanese destroying a cavalry unit in Kansas as a battleship in Norfolk. There is no way to check and see if the US even has ships based in Hawaii. At the beginning of the game, the US Pacific fleet is still based in California. With no changes by the player or the AI, the Pacific Fleet will be safe and sound in San Pedro while Japanese bombers are tearing up Pearl.

Without better modding tools, it is impossible to create a Pearl Harbor event. MDow

Hmm. I just got a crazy idea. Its not perfect in modelling PH but it might work some.

A) We cant make the AI position ships at Pearl Harbor, and much less decide which ships to station there.

1) How about making the assumption that as long as the US is not at war The fleet is simply stationed there. This is not 100% correct historically but for sakes of the event it might be a workaround.

2) lets protrait this by putting the affected ships in the build que from the beginnin of the game.
a) For this we need to find the exact combination of ships stationed there which cant be too hard.
b) any ships stationed there and build prior to 36 should have a build cost of 0, the rest a cost based on normal building cost devided by time from 36 to PH attack.
c) any ships sunk in the attack should of course not be included and not be in the starting OOB.
d) any ships damaged in the attack should have the historical repair time added to the build time.
e) we need to give the units specific id's from the start so we can target them later on should the US go to war before PH. IS IT POSSIBLE TO ASSIGN IDS LIKE THAT?

B) We need a series of events that fire if the US goes to war before PH

1) The first event gives the US the same amount of units that were stationed at PH.
a) Because of the way the system works these will be latest models so we will have to add a big cost in steel and supplies to make it not worth it for a human player to take this route. maybe a seperate is neede for the AI USA without the cost so it doesnt turn into an exploit for an axis player to make DoW on US.
2) The other events should fire imidiately after the unit is finished in the build que and remove the unit from the game. Unless of course it is possible to delete a unit in the build que. CAN THIS BE DONE?
a) this wont be a problem for the cost 0 units but the others might come in a little late if they have been downprioritized by a human player and therefore not be delete at the right time.

C) Should Japan decide not to make a PH, we need other events.

1) events to give the US the units that were historically sunk.

2) events to give them units that were damaged in the attack

3) The unharmed ships will be given through the build que and released for redeployment upon the PH date.

4) events like above to target or cancel the damaged or late build ships in the build que.


What do you guys think. Is it possible at all this way. What other problems have I overlooked?

Ghost_dk

 

[JRaup]

It's an interesting Idea Ghost, but I see 1 major problem with it. What if teh USa enters the war ahistorically early? say if Germany decides to invade Brazil? This would effectively deny the US Navy ships she historicaly had, and possibly even allow an early invasion of the USA, as well as be unable to enforce the Monroe doctrine. There are just too many variables to try and account for in trying to simulate the effects of PH. It's a flaw in the system. As MDow said, unless we get better modding tools (mainly better command line-unit interaction), I just don't see a way to handle this with out causing some sort of quirky, broken situation. Though this idea might work in a 39 or 41 scenario, so keep it in mind.

 

[unmerged(16133)]

so there is no way to target a specific unit for removal? that is a bit frustrating. and having the fleet safe in san diego really is not too safe Pearl was hit because it's where the ships were. (atleast i believe) If the Fleet had been stationed elsewhere that the attack most likely would have been there. and denying the US the usxe of the fleet prior to Pearl is not really an option there are too many variables and exploits useable if that is done.

Tyhanks for your reply's
James

 

[Ghost_dk]

It's an interesting Idea Ghost, but I see 1 major problem with it. What if teh USa enters the war ahistorically early? say if Germany decides to invade Brazil? This would effectively deny the US Navy ships she historicaly had, and possibly even allow an early invasion of the USA, as well as be unable to enforce the Monroe doctrine. There are just too many variables to try and account for in trying to simulate the effects of PH. It's a flaw in the system. As MDow said, unless we get better modding tools (mainly better command line-unit interaction), I just don't see a way to handle this with out causing some sort of quirky, broken situation. Though this idea might work in a 39 or 41 scenario, so keep it in mind.

I agree that the early us war is the most likely killer og the idea. If we can make an event that checks say twice a week and then if the US goes to war they get units of the latest models and loose the ones in the que if thats possible. Im going to play around with it a bit once 0.7 is out but let it rest for now.

Ghost_dk

 

[unmerged(14713)]

Another type of event suggestion

If there is no naval units in Honolulu port, then i suppose that the japan will have made a major landing there.

I don't know if it is possible to test the number of plane, ship or land units in a province, but if it is possible i suggest that :

based on the several landings that the japanese made on the first days of the war.

Each island which is free of units will be taken by the jap (i think that changing ownership of the province is possible) say at a three days interval (and not only the usa ones but all the allied ones) after changing the ownership the creation of a new unit on the newly acquired island will create a garrison unit (one Milicia for the not valuable, one DI for normal island, and 3 DI for the islands with VP, perharps with one air div unit). next a event will have to create all the necessary convoys.

If the island is occupied only by navy or planes without garrison, then i suggest that the units concerned where send to the forcepool at 50% strenght (considering an overruning of the island by Jap lands units) and changing the ownership of the province

for islands with land, land/naval land/air or land/naval/air, the island with the biggest number of units will be strike as for pearl harbour. If it is not possible to target an unit for killing, i propose to take away 90% of the strenght of all the units in the province (it's perhaps easier (not sure i am not a modder))

Perharps a nuke attack could be made to simulate the strike ? I don't know

The overall idea is to give the jap a boost in the pacific theater, and to put pressure on the allies to garrison the valuable islands. Next with all the garrisoning Allies will have to fight back for every bit of land.

Bests regards

 

[unmerged(25102)]

I love all these ideas! Yes it's true even islands with troops where attacked heavily and i propose that units with just plane or naval units get sent back with maybe even 20% loss because in wake Island the Japaneese attacked the planes FAST! I think wake island should be given no mater what, but if they garrisoned perhaps leave it. NOW my only problem is what happens to the japs? both ai and human? and human AI might no it's comming will quickly garrison it, but an AI? can flag go off to make them realize it fast enough to get it support? should the human and supposedly AI get a warning too since they are suppose to be the attacker? what would be nice if somehow a nicely hidden maybe that says something common like (industiral growth ect.) so it looks normal goes of and it says USA sneak attack starts in two weeks! then in two weeks it happens and the japaneese is ready the americans suprised and all is good ^.^ therefore have peral harbor hapen AROUND what time it did but give it some randomness so that no one can just know and prepare. Also be nice if any US units are near islan they're moved away so that the US can't ust leave transport ready to launch! Also BETTER YET, can you pop a unit for the japs on it? that way that's stopped no matter what?! Then again could say that since they know they should prepare and give naval support (making it so that the US can see signs of a pearl harbor if human. so that the japs actually scare the American)
Wow I type to much... I'll shute it and get so more idea from ya

 

[EasilyConfused]

To be honest I'd just leave out Pearl Harbor. Perhaps make a small dissent penalty to the US to symbolize the military problems the attack caused. If the US navy hadn't had ships in Pearl Harbor they would still never have been invaded by the Japanese. Remember that fast carriers are much easier to sneak close to someone than slow transports. The game mechanics allow attacks like an invasion of Hawaii by Japan. There is no need to add events for it.

 

[unmerged(14713)]

Incentive

I was looking for a way to force the US Player to keep a good fleet and troops on honolulu, rather than let him stock all ships on the west coast.

I am sure you would agree, that if honolulu is defenseless, japan will try to overrun it. So USA will have first to take it back before going westward.

And fighting a defensive battle in honolulu would been advantageous for the japan no ?

bests regards

 

[EasilyConfused]

Thats the thing Durin. If it is defenseless then the Japanese player can take it during the war. There is no need for an event, all thats needed (if anything) is a further tweaking of the AI files.

 

[unmerged(16133)]

well a furthur tweaking would be definately helpful, had a US player march into Japan totally undefended Main Island, had the entire island captured in just over 2 weeks.

but on the Events If there are going to be events simulating other occurances during the time period, then having something in for the simlation of Pearl Harbor needs to be included, (just the game seems to be lacking a certain feeling when playing the US for me and 2 other friends) I've seen it mentioned that the remove division command doesn't allow the removal of specific units by their id # seems like a shame when each unit has it's own #, do any of the CORE people have any info on wether or not Paradox has looked into modifying this in a patch?

 

[Pkunzipper]

Here's my idea about a Pearl Harbour event.

US pacific fleet must be in Honolulu (Pearl Harbour), it can be done in 2 ways, I will describe them later.

Honolulu or better "Pearl Harbour Attack" is programmed as a nation.
Then Honolulu become "Liberated" by an event, so it will take control of all the unit over his regions (only 1, Hawaii), and so all the ships, some air-unit and at max 1 land unit...

Then another event uses the "remove division" command 7-8 times, and with a good chance it will eliminate a naval unit.

Then USA "inherit" (like the Anschluss) Hawaii again, re-taking control of the remaining units....

This is the basic idea, it can be enriched by adding more plan (like PLAN A = historical; PLAN B = less ship destroyed, but oil and supply depot destroyed, etc).

About keeping all the pacific naval unit on Pearl Harbour:
1- For a human player, it is an house-rule, while for an USA ai it can be scripted to keep all the naval unit there before the war start.

2-Making the Hawaii nation exists since the beginning...Obviously all the US ships must belong to that nation until the Pearl Harbour event chain.

 

[unmerged(19841)]

Here's my idea about a Pearl Harbour event.

US pacific fleet must be in Honolulu (Pearl Harbour), it can be done in 2 ways, I will describe them later.

Honolulu or better "Pearl Harbour Attack" is programmed as a nation.
Then Honolulu become "Liberated" by an event, so it will take control of all the unit over his regions (only 1, Hawaii), and so all the ships, some air-unit and at max 1 land unit...

Then another event uses the "remove division" command 7-8 times, and with a good chance it will eliminate a naval unit.

Then USA "inherit" (like the Anschluss) Hawaii again, re-taking control of the remaining units....

This is the basic idea, it can be enriched by adding more plan (like PLAN A = historical; PLAN B = less ship destroyed, but oil and supply depot destroyed, etc).

About keeping all the pacific naval unit on Pearl Harbour:
1- For a human player, it is an house-rule, while for an USA ai it can be scripted to keep all the naval unit there before the war start.

2-Making the Hawaii nation exists since the beginning...Obviously all the US ships must belong to that nation until the Pearl Harbour event chain.

good idea,i think you may be on to the only way to recreate an pearl habor attack,you also should have an event that is linked to the delete unit command for the new nation of "pearl Habor attack",that show other effect on the u.s.a. such as possible effect from pearl harbor,although the devastionwas unprecedented. the the lose of fewer than 30 aircraft, the japonese had inflicted staggering casualties on the americans:4,700 dead or wounded;eght battle ships,three ccruisers and three destroyers,either sunk or badly damaged,400 out of 480 planes destroyed or rendered unservicable.
although the raid was devastating it was not entirly succesful.

1)the bombers left in tact an enormous fuel-tank farm nerby. its destruction would have forced the u.s. navy to move to the west coast, clearing much of the pawestern Pacific of American ships.

2)The attack also failed to destroy any of the U.S. Pacific Fleet's carries;none were station at the harbor that day, and they would come to inflict a terrible vengeance on the japonese navy at midway and the coral sea.

3) the shops and dry docks used to repair and serves ship were also left untouched,

if they could they would had sent o third wave it would of keep the u.s. from being able to succesfully engage the japonese for months if not an year or more, these worse case options should linked to the pearl habor events in loss or oil and such

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Pearl Harbor

Pkunzipper:

Then USA "inherit" (like the Anschluss) Hawaii again, re-taking control of the remaining units....

Hmmm, the trouble was that the Pacific Fleet didn't move out to Pearl until mid-1941. Until then it was snug at San Pedro and relatively safe. One of the things I've noticed in playing HOI is how aggressive that move to Oahu makes the USA look in the Pacific, which is exactly what was on the mind of the US government at the time.

The other problem is what happens in an early war scenario for the USA if the Kingdom of Hawaii has the bulk of the USN.

Less aggressive ideas might include:
- Adding the US 24th Division as the pre-war Hawaii garrison (along with a resupply convoy).
- Increasing the VP value of Hawaii
- Tweaking the Japanese AI to move more aggressively on Hawaii.

 

[unmerged(19841)]

Honolulu or better "Pearl Harbour Attack" is programmed as a nation.
Then Honolulu become "Liberated" by an event, so it will take control of all the unit over his regions (only 1, Hawaii), and so all the ships, some air-unit and at max 1 land unit...

Then another event uses the "remove division" command 7-8 times, and with a good chance it will eliminate a naval unit.

Then USA "inherit" (like the Anschluss) Hawaii again, re-taking control of the remaining units....

.

1)
rather than having random units all over the world be remove,remove the battle ships and units that were historicly lost at pearl habor then add them to the build quere

development = {
name = "USS Arizona"
type = battleship
model = 6
cost = 7
id = { type = 17702 id = 3000 }
date = { year = 1941 month = october day = 31 }
}

development = {
name = "USS Nevada"
type = battleship
model = 6
cost = 7
id = { type = 17702 id = 3001 }
date = { year = 1941 month = october day = 31 }
}

so that they will have a better chance of being stationed at pearl habor.

2)
have the pearl habor attack event start a couple moths or so before dec 7,them set the add random to the trigger of maybe 10,( will have to test to make sure it fire within couple months befroe or after) with an offset of 1 to check day.

3)
Then USA "inherit" have the country of pearl habor add civil_war = USA so they will get all of there remaining units.

4)
make a event for the USA to inherit pearl harbor and sleep attack on pearl harbor events if the usa enters the war earlly and would be more perpared to be attacked

5)
in the attack pearl habor event have several options with the historical being the 1st, maybe carriors habored at pearl ,oil reserve hit and ship yards and dry docks destored, and the u.s found japons fleet just pior to attack and and was prepair for them with a major counter attack ( maybe heavly damaging japons fleet and strike force)

 

[MateDow]

Pearl Harbor

I am seeing a lot of ideas bounced around to 'ensure' that the US bases forces in Hawaii. I don't think that the navy being based in Hawaii or the Japanese attack on forces there is a foregone conclusion. The Japanese almost didn't make the attack on Pearl Harbor. The Japanese attack was aimed at SE Asia. The Japanese fleet was designed for a large naval battle in the Central Pacific as the US Pacific Fleet rushed to defend the Phillipines. With land based aircraft and a larger fleet concentrated in that theater, they might have had a good chance of winning that battle. That attack would have been a much larger morale blow than loosing battleships in Pearl. Why should we force the AI to make an attack when it might not have been the best option. I would rather see us come up with ways that ensure the Japanese are forced to confront the western powers to acquire oil and resources in SE Asia rather than trying to recreate a single battle. If we are going to try and recreate individual battles, why not Kursk, Dunkirk, and other monumental battles? The beauty of HoI is that history runs mostly the same, but it is the differences that make the game fun. MDow

 

[JRaup]

while there have been some good suggestion about PH here, I think that ultimately, this is a dead end. There are just too many variables we have no control over, either by AI or event, to account for. what if the Chinese navy scores a major victory over the IJN in late 36? What if there's a Russo-Japanese war over Nomonhan? It could very well be that the IJN won't have the carrier capacity to launch a PH type attack. What if there's an early Japanese-american war? Say, 1939 or 1940? What about if there is an early US entry into the European conflict? Plus there are no guarantees as to how the USN will be distributed across the globe either. This all leads me to belive that trying to recreate PH (or any other major battle), could be a mistake, one that could produce some results that have no logic, or real chance of happening in game. Also, as Steel said (soemwhere), there is a way this can be done, as an actual battle in game, which IMO, is the way it shouuld be left.

 

[unmerged(14713)]

while there have been some good suggestion about PH here, I think that ultimately, this is a dead end. There are just too many variables we have no control over, either by AI or event, to account for. what if the Chinese navy scores a major victory over the IJN in late 36? What if there's a Russo-Japanese war over Nomonhan? It could very well be that the IJN won't have the carrier capacity to launch a PH type attack. What if there's an early Japanese-american war? Say, 1939 or 1940? What about if there is an early US entry into the European conflict? Plus there are no guarantees as to how the USN will be distributed across the globe either. This all leads me to belive that trying to recreate PH (or any other major battle), could be a mistake, one that could produce some results that have no logic, or real chance of happening in game. Also, as Steel said (soemwhere), there is a way this can be done, as an actual battle in game, which IMO, is the way it shouuld be left.

I don't think chinese navy is able to score a major victory against IJN

If there is a russo japanese war, i think this should direct the japan strategy to be mainly land, and target to USRR and China. So no agressive action against USA, and so USA war entry low. An early US entry into european conflict is quite impossible, perharps only in one case, england main island invasion by axis forces or communists forces.

I agree with the battle solution but IA tactics are to ineffectives against an human opponent. (SP point of view)

A last solution, there is a 1941 campaign no ? this the solution.

bests regards