Question to expierenced MPers

[binTravkin]

Hey MP dragons!

Some people around me raised concern that Spain is inherently powerful in EU2 as per it's New World ways and as per Tordesillas, which allows to confiscate other's colonial holdings easily.

What is your expierence?
Does Spain become a major nuisance in most MP games?
Is it to a level you often think that it should be stripped some of it's privileges?

Thanks,
bT

 

[unmerged(55087)]

The problem with Spain in MP is that it does not decline. The Ottomans, in contrast, do decline because of tech group drop, rise of trade income for other powers, religious problems, and geographical difficulties become acute as OE naval power declines.

Spain still has the Achilles Heel of manpower once France really gets on her feet. However, she can use her wealth to buy allies/mercenaries and her geography to blunt France's offensive power (crossing the Pyrennes is fairly hard). If Portugal turns on Spain, it can be very difficult.

However, I think this highlights a problem that is pretty powerful in MP which is the inability to properly form coalitions. Theoretically, it shouldnt matter if one nation becomes very strong in a 12-player game. The other 11 should be able to counter that single power. Unfortunately, it doesnt usually happen.

Lets say Spain gets really powerful. Well, England/Portugal/France/OE could oppose them. Maybe even a Scandinavian on the sea. But what happens is Spain co-opts Portugal easily because they are weak. Then Spain buys Austrian support through cash payments to create a problem for France/OE. Then they form come colonial agreement with England. England and Portugal are generally played by less aggressive players as well who want to play single-player games with their friends instead of true MP.

Then there is this belief that it is immoral to "gangbang" another country. This is exploited by the target to try and eliminate some of their rivals.

Now you can add elements to scenarios that reduce this problem (such as making harsher decline events or reducing gold mines). However, I would have to say 99% of any "imbalance" in an MP game is the fault of the players, not the scenario design. But scenario design does help.

 

[unmerged(10915)]

However, I think this highlights a problem that is pretty powerful in MP which is the inability to properly form coalitions. Theoretically, it shouldnt matter if one nation becomes very strong in a 12-player game. The other 11 should be able to counter that single power. Unfortunately, it doesnt usually happen.

You pretty much summed up what i was going to say .
The "problem" in some games where one nation has reached a position of greatness, is that the other players have not had the forethought or clairvoyance to understand what happens and act in time. The thing is, this happens in exactly every game to some degree and utilizing other people's ignorance is one of the tools the good diplomat uses to further his position .

 

[unmerged(18425)]

In addition to all of this: the Treaty of Tordesillas is often slept in MP.

 

[arcorelli]

The problem with Spain in MP is that it does not decline. The Ottomans, in contrast, do decline because of tech group drop, rise of trade income for other powers, religious problems, and geographical difficulties become acute as OE naval power declines.

I had seen my shares of declining Spains. It is true that in able hands Spain can be unstopable. Now, that is true regarding France, OE, Russia etc. But Spain got their problems for middle-late game: lack of leaders, other countries start to become as (or more) richer than them -England, Portugal, NL. It is kind of easy to let yourself behind in some techs (naval for example), since usually Spain is not an innovative country.

You can make an scenario when Spain bought off everyone else. You can do the same with other countries, so it is not something particular of Spain.

 

[binTravkin]

So in general, you disapprove of Spain being extensively privileged (well except for the fact it IS one of the major powers, which is natural), except for this small detail:

In addition to all of this: the Treaty of Tordesillas is often slept in MP.

 

[unmerged(32886)]

Hey MP dragons!

Some people around me raised concern that Spain is inherently powerful in EU2 as per it's New World ways and as per Tordesillas, which allows to confiscate other's colonial holdings easily.

What is your expierence?
Does Spain become a major nuisance in most MP games?
Is it to a level you often think that it should be stripped some of it's privileges?

Thanks,
bT

I don't believe Spain is too powerful compared to other nations. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. Most nations, in capable hands, have the potential to become nr 1. Whether it's Spain, England, Austria, OE. Besides, there are gangbangs to solve this prob . And if players have let nations get too powerful, well, it's their own fault.