Should Germany be forced to disclose to SU in 1936 their plans to attack SU in 40 or 41 just to guarantee resource trades with SU? 
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I think that's fine and normal so long as there isn't actually a rule that says Germany has to adhere to whatever it agrees to with the SU.
the point is after nonagression pact is up.....war can start anytime.....unless germany and russia come to an agreement.....thus the trade for no war till june 41......those are merely the conditions wanted by russia.....aussie rules say it up to the two players to agree.......so if you guys dont......anything goes then i guess
Geofactor said:
geo's right. In Aussie group germany has to indicate generally how long until war, in return they recieve a favourable resource deal. Without agreement there is no resource deal. Agreement usually only runs until early 41 in most instances.
Rastius06 said:
hmmm.....so I guess I am wrong then!
To me? This seems almost ridiculous.........................why? because the fact is...in history, which are the rules we r playing by i guess......germany and su had many trades going on and if I was to tell SU when I was going to attack then they may build a series of 3 IC rather than 2...........I have never played by this and I find it to be .......a most gamey approach for SU. Sure...let me gaurentee when Germany will attack!!! HA!! lollllllllllllll Hey if that's the way u play then I guess I've been dogged all this time when I played SU!! lolllllllllllll BTW, when will the USa and UK invade so I can prepare my beaches?
well...in reality russia NEVER expected germany to attack them....and if stalin knew germany was going to attack eventually......they wouldnt have traded jack shit to germay.....the problem here is we all know what happened historically........thus the need for some sort of agreement w germany and russia........would you as germany be ready for an attack from russia in jan of 1940?.....what is to stop russia from doing this?......an unofficial NAP is the only way.....with a fair trade agreement!....the trade anders offered was the standard agreement that has been used for many many aussie games......you obviously didnt like so......as germany you may suffer the consequences of an early war with germany.......Game over if you ask me.........but i suppose time will tell.....
Geofactor said:well...in reality russia NEVER expected germany to attack them....and if stalin knew germany was going to attack eventually......they wouldnt have traded jack shit to germay.....
Exactly my point! Thanks Geo! "If" is the the big word u just used..............and that says it all.
yes that is the point.......everyone knows the attack will happen!!!!.......no one says you had to agree......but unlike hiensons rules.......russia if also free to attack after NAP
Geofactor said:
And russia can attack if I choose to make the MR pact until 40.....remember in 39 I get a choice as Germany to renew that until 40 or 41.....and that's when SU should get the knowledge.....not in 36!
I do not think Germany should have to tell USSR anything.
I also dont think ANY human player should be forced to trade with another human. I mean damn, the world is full of neutrals with lots of resources, let axis trade on day 2 first and to hell with ussr.
I also dont think ANY human player should be forced to trade with another human. I mean damn, the world is full of neutrals with lots of resources, let axis trade on day 2 first and to hell with ussr.
KngTigerII said:
I agree with k2 here. If Germany doesn't want that big massive trade in 1936, then Soviet Union should not be able to declare war on Germans. The way we've always played before the aussie rules started being used if germany agreed to the historical pact then there could be no war until june 1941. If Germans took the limited-pact then they could declare war on russia in april-may 1940. Dunno why Russia should be able to DoW Germany in april 1940 with the signing of the historical pact when italy joins in march 1940...but that's their rule. I guess if you play Germany with aussie rules and don't like that trade build to attack sovs in 1940, their gde is so low and they have no land docs. IMO with the big ass amount of resources you get from Soviets with the trade you can get your supplies back from other nations and still have econ left over from the trade.
40 supplies for 40 rare 40 oil 100 energy 40 metal
I think what k2 is trying to say is he doesn't want SU to have a guarantee in 1936 that there will be war in 1941 or 1940, he wants to wait until he molotov pact to decide it, like hiensen's rules and the rules I am used to playing by.
I think I side with more with KT2 on this one, but for the sake of the game, I will finish as Germany. I have wanted to play against 'the banned one' for some time now, and this is my chance.
Next Tuesday boys, 1800 CET
(Your killing on the sleep time, but hey, it's HoI2!!)
Next Tuesday boys, 1800 CET
(Your killing on the sleep time, but hey, it's HoI2!!)
Whats so hard to understand.
If Germany wants to pown russia early then NO trade for him.
If Germany is a real man and waits till 41 then there is transperancy. Germany gets a shit load of materials for dirt cheap, tell me where you can get somuch resources that cheap from AI without trade jacking...... NOWHERE
Dowing in 1940 is for Germanys with no balls anyway. I really pitty people who do this its like fighting a cripple you know your going to win so whats the point.
Whats the most to fear of Russia in 1941? A few Infantry pffffft.
It's all about self respect, anyway who thinks they can only beat Russia in 1940 needs to drink a cup of concrete and HARDEN THE FACK UP!
If Germany wants to pown russia early then NO trade for him.
If Germany is a real man and waits till 41 then there is transperancy. Germany gets a shit load of materials for dirt cheap, tell me where you can get somuch resources that cheap from AI without trade jacking...... NOWHERE
Dowing in 1940 is for Germanys with no balls anyway. I really pitty people who do this its like fighting a cripple you know your going to win so whats the point.
Whats the most to fear of Russia in 1941? A few Infantry pffffft.
It's all about self respect, anyway who thinks they can only beat Russia in 1940 needs to drink a cup of concrete and HARDEN THE FACK UP!
I just assume that historical means exactly that...... and not anything other than that......just because you know that the attack is inevitable, because it's a game based on on historical events, doesn't mean you get to know when it's coming in the game in reality. Plz!!! Gamey approach........
Mighty G said:
Germany dowing SU in 1940 after have knocked down pity French AI is simply gamey (But SU dowing in 1940 Germany who is fighting a human controled France is even worse)
French AI is AN AXIS BONUS (the fourth axis country , if it's not milit controled by UK......what else?)
Adam makes good points. And I agree also, in Mighty G's spirit.
I haven't played through this scenario, but to me if USSR were getting squirrely about trade in 1936, I'd just deny them any pact at all. See how they like that. Then while they are itching and wondering about how they are going to deal with a German invasion when they are at .5 to .6 GDE, I'd just ignore them and let them stew. Then maybe I'd offer them some kind of pact, or maybe not. But USSR invading in 1939, 1940 seems pretty risky. Hell, I might even leave them on tenderhooks for a whole nother year, and DOW in 1941, knowing for a fact that they would be spending IC upgrading their 1939 infantry they built for my 1940 invasion that never happened, rather than building fresh.
Theoretically anyway, it is six of one and a half dozen of another.
On the other hand, I think this point could be more explicitly outlined in the rules. In the past we played with specific rules specifying that USSR was obliged to give Germany fair trade. This is historical, and actually a reflection of necessity, because none of the other great powers would touch Soviet raw materials, except in a very minor way. Germany was the option. But we made this rule in order to prevent the Allies "gamily" squeezing Germany for rares, not because of the strategic dynamics.
I haven't played through this scenario, but to me if USSR were getting squirrely about trade in 1936, I'd just deny them any pact at all. See how they like that. Then while they are itching and wondering about how they are going to deal with a German invasion when they are at .5 to .6 GDE, I'd just ignore them and let them stew. Then maybe I'd offer them some kind of pact, or maybe not. But USSR invading in 1939, 1940 seems pretty risky. Hell, I might even leave them on tenderhooks for a whole nother year, and DOW in 1941, knowing for a fact that they would be spending IC upgrading their 1939 infantry they built for my 1940 invasion that never happened, rather than building fresh.
Theoretically anyway, it is six of one and a half dozen of another.
On the other hand, I think this point could be more explicitly outlined in the rules. In the past we played with specific rules specifying that USSR was obliged to give Germany fair trade. This is historical, and actually a reflection of necessity, because none of the other great powers would touch Soviet raw materials, except in a very minor way. Germany was the option. But we made this rule in order to prevent the Allies "gamily" squeezing Germany for rares, not because of the strategic dynamics.
Really the question here is not whether or not the German player is a man enough. it's more so whether or not he wishes to keep some information private.
The fact is, my German plan always waits until 41, but why should my opponent know that?? It gives the SU player an advatage of knowing.......and in history Stalin knew it was coming, but he just wasn't sure when.
I am right and will never play with this bogus rule, afterall every time I have played the SU, I was a free market until MR pact and that's the way it should be...like it or lump it...only cowardess players will play like this. End of conversation!!
The fact is, my German plan always waits until 41, but why should my opponent know that?? It gives the SU player an advatage of knowing.......and in history Stalin knew it was coming, but he just wasn't sure when.
I am right and will never play with this bogus rule, afterall every time I have played the SU, I was a free market until MR pact and that's the way it should be...like it or lump it...only cowardess players will play like this. End of conversation!!
I think KT2 is right and if you look at it in a realistic way, SU would NEVER EVER even dream of a M-R pact guaranteeing a late war in 1936 let alone propose trade deals based on a possible M-R pact, its completely gamey IMO.