Questions about Burgundy

[Stevo76]

In previous iterations of the EU franchise, Burgundy was always a fairly prominent power in the early game. However, the new start date predates Philip and the House of Valois' control of the Duchy. Despite the fact that Burgundy as a European power only lasted for a couple of generations, it led to some very significant changes in western Europe -- particularly around the wars of Charles the Bold. The effects of Burgundian conquests in France, Germany, and the Low Countries led to lasting changes in the regional political and cultural landscapes, with effects that continued on after the death of Charles the Bold.

Some of the things I'm thinking of:

The Swiss Confederacy being galvanised against the external threat posed by Burgundy.

Helping to delineate the 'Netherlands' as a relatively distinct area.

The diplomatic effects of having another significant power (that may be amenable to English interests) during the 100 Years War.

The dissolution of Burgundy leading to the expansion of imperial crownlands in much of the former Duchy's territory.

Thinking in particular of places like Switzerland and the future Netherlands, I'm wondering how the politics of these areas will be modelled. Will there be a semi-scripted rise and fall for an expansionist Burgundy in the early stages of the game? Will there be events, etc. that may nudge the area in a similar direction without relying on railroading the rise of another regional power? It seems like many of the lasting effects from the Burgundian wars are significant enough to not be ignored, and I'm really curious as to how these sorts of events may be modelled.

 

[SuperLexxe]

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Despite Burgundy not starting under the Valois, but the Capet, they aren't exactly weak either. I posted their line of personal unions in another thread before. The Capet dukes weren't really infertile, but rather died early deaths in battle or plague.

I think Burgundy can be represented as a powerhouse without requiring improbable railroading to go under the Valois.

Atleast Burgundy starts in a decent position with an immediate PU over Artois and the County of Burgundy (Franche Comte), due to the marriage of Odo IV and Joan III, with their son Philip I inheriting the Duchy of Burgundy, the County of Burgundy, and the County of Artois.

Philip I may also be able to marry Joan I of Auvergne and Boulogne, as they did historically in 1338, getting even more PUs.

So in short, Burgundy can gather a lot of personal unions very early, with a combined population of 1.6 million pre-black death:

• First Ruler (Odo IV):
  • Duchy of Burgundy (522k)
• Second Ruler (Philip I):
  • County of Franche Comte (400k)
  • County of Artois (235k)
• Third Ruler (Not born yet):
  • County of Auvergne (429k)
  • County of Boulogne (50k)

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[tinholt]

In the past, someone asked something similar:

For me personally I don't mind some railroading although I'd prefer to just let the simulation run its course. What I do dislike is something like the current Burgundian Inheritance in EU4. It was fun and interesting at first, but got stale very quickly. It is "meta" to get the Burgundian Inheritance in every European play trough, even just to prevent a great power from getting it. I ended up modding the fertility penalty of Charles the Burgoyne (from -95% back up to -50%), just because I got so tired of it.

I think this is the most important consideration for railroading. Will it quickly get stale over multiple play troughs.

To which @Pavía replied:

There won't be a 'Burgundian Inheritance' as in EUIV in this game, we've already fixed too many bugs about that in the last patches of EUIV.

Also:

Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.

 

[Stevo76]

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Despite Burgundy not starting under the Valois, but the Capet, they aren't exactly weak either. I posted their line of personal unions in another thread before. The Capet dukes weren't really infertile, but rather died early deaths in battle or plague.

I think Burgundy can be represented as a powerhouse without requiring improbable railroading to go under the Valois.

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I think it's less a question about the rise of the house of Valois in particular, but more about Burgundy's rapid expansion over the 14th and 15th centuries.

 

[Stevo76]

In the past, someone asked something similar:



To which @Pavía replied:



Also:

Yeah, I did come across that thread. I can understand not wanting to model a railroaded solution, as that would probably be quite frustrating for players. On the other hand, I think Europe would have developed much differently without the political consolidation burgundy had aimed to achieve. Pavia seems to have left that open, so I'm curious as to whether the devs have had some more thoughts on how to capture this in the game.

 

[Fawr]

I did see that Holland/Netherlands was a tier2 country. That suggests an assumption that they will have a decent chance of forming.

We might get the assumption of cultural delineation that came with Burgundy, without actually getting Burgundy.

I think it's less a question about the rise of the house of Valois in particular, but more about Burgundy's rapid expansion over the 14th and 15th centuries.

Would it have risen like that without having a royal duke?

 

[J_Master]

I think it's less a question about the rise of the house of Valois in particular, but more about Burgundy's rapid expansion over the 14th and 15th centuries.

But that's one and the same. The "rise of Burgundy" like we saw was particularly the "rise of the Valois-Burgundy's". Even then, the real motor behind its power was the wealth of the Flemish cities, so it would be highly dependent on not just the duchy being granted to a Valois prince, but to a particular marriage to Margaretha van Male, who herself hasn't been born yet in 1337

Yeah, I did come across that thread. I can understand not wanting to model a railroaded solution, as that would probably be quite frustrating for players. On the other hand, I think Europe would have developed much differently without the political consolidation burgundy had aimed to achieve. Pavia seems to have left that open, so I'm curious as to whether the devs have had some more thoughts on how to capture this in the game.

I think we have to be honest about the problem really: PDX's choice for 1337. If they wanted a more recognizable Europe, they should've chosen a later start date. Railroading is just a band aid solution, as the Burgundian Inheritance showed in EU4

I did see that Holland/Netherlands was a tier2 country. That suggests an assumption that they will have a decent chance of forming.

By 1337, there's already a lot of "dynastic chicanery" going on in the Low Countries. Various rulers are ambitious and willing to press claims. If there's some more generic stuff in regards to a ruler pushing for a unified title on behalf of the Emperor, I could see it likely. But too bad that's it's Holland getting the spotlight...

 

[ingenieux]

I think Switzerland and the Netherlands could happen as IOs.
For example :
- the Netherlands
--- either one dutch country controls enough of the area it can form the netherlands and propose to the leftover minors to join ;
--- or, if a certain % of the area is under control of a power that is not dutch culture => If there is a revolt the IO appears and get power from the dutch pops, use this power to set more revolts and can be joined by independant dutch countries if any left until they liberate the tags and add them to the IO, then it is nation building with the different tags vying for contorl over the IO ;
--- or some event triggers after [TBD event based on a real-life event that could have lead to the formation of the netherlands, reformation maybe ?] for the formation of an overarching cooperation between the "OPMs" of the area ;

- Switzerland
--- Starts as an IO of 3 cantons that can expand diplomatically to any small and [compatible governement type] country, maybe favored by common antagonism towards a big power so it can be Burgundy, France, or Austria or Bavaria; with a full unification possible after if either a foreign nation subjugate the IO or if some late-game advance is researched by enough members.

 

[Azgabeth]

Well, Pavia already confirmed he wants to add mechanics to make the HRE kingdoms a more important aspect of the region.

Perhaps there might be some content for Franche-Comte or the Duchy of Burgundy to get claims on all the de jure realms of the kingdom of burgundy?

 

[Stevo76]

I think Switzerland and the Netherlands could happen as IOs.
For example :
- the Netherlands
--- either one dutch country controls enough of the area it can form the netherlands and propose to the leftover minors to join ;
--- or, if a certain % of the area is under control of a power that is not dutch culture => If there is a revolt the IO appears and get power from the dutch pops, use this power to set more revolts and can be joined by independant dutch countries if any left until they liberate the tags and add them to the IO, then it is nation building with the different tags vying for contorl over the IO ;
--- or some event triggers after [TBD event based on a real-life event that could have lead to the formation of the netherlands, reformation maybe ?] for the formation of an overarching cooperation between the "OPMs" of the area ;

- Switzerland
--- Starts as an IO of 3 cantons that can expand diplomatically to any small and [compatible governement type] country, maybe favored by common antagonism towards a big power so it can be Burgundy, France, or Austria or Bavaria; with a full unification possible after if either a foreign nation subjugate the IO or if some late-game advance is researched by enough members.

I hope they'll find a good way of modelling the external forces that helped shape these regions/identities. For the Netherlands in particular, it seems like Burgundy was instrumental in terms of splitting places like Flanders and Wallonia away from French influence, and differentiating some of the 'Low Franconian' areas in the future Netherlands from their (contemporarily) German peers.