Replace "Horned God" with Herodiana as the "witchcraft deity" of Christianity

[SMiki Lorebringer]

"Horned God" is a Wiccan invention. I think a much more flavourful option for a "Christian" witchcraft deity would be Herodiana, a syncretized form of Diana, Herodias, and a number of other figures, whose supposed cults were attested in medieval sources:

Diana (mythology) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Herodias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ATP Kraken]

I thought that "Horned God" was supposed to be some sort of ambiguous Satan/Cernunnos figure, but it'd be a very flavorful deep cut to have in the game. It works with both eastern and western Christians, too.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

I thought that "Horned God" was supposed to be some sort of ambiguous Satan/Cernunnos figure, but it'd be a very flavorful deep cut to have in the game. It works with both eastern and western Christians, too.

From what I understand, actual Satanism was almost nonexistent during the period.

Thinking about Nestorians and other Christians without ties to Rome, perhaps just Herodias would be cool (as a Biblical character she'd be known in Ethiopia and Persia as well)

 

[Eltar1]

The first time the 'Horned God' event showed up, I was playing as a Slavic pagan and I thought the Horned God was some vague way to refer to Veles, who is the god of magic in slavic myths and is depicted with horns. And when I was playing as Christian, I thought it was some vague way to refer to the devil. I think it works reasonably well as some vague placeholder thing.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

The first time the 'Horned God' event showed up, I was playing as a Slavic pagan and I thought the Horned God was some vague way to refer to Veles, who is the god of magic in slavic myths and is depicted with horns. And when I was playing as Christian, I thought it was some vague way to refer to the devil. I think it works reasonably well as some vague placeholder thing.

A placeholder name might be fine for the generic "Paganism" placeholder faith (in case a character revives it, it needs deity names localizations to avoid awkward stuff like artifacts being named "The Secret Tome of _DEBUG_") but I expect better from named faiths that are meant to be playable.

The first instance you mention is probably a localization bug as the "witch god" of Slavic faith in game files is indeed Veles. Most of the faiths in the game have the slot filled in a flavourful manner: Hinduism has Kali, Asatru has Freya, etc. "Horned God" for Christianity stands out in a bad way as it's just a Wicca figure transplanted into the past.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

A placeholder name might be fine for the generic "Paganism" placeholder faith (in case a character revives it, it needs deity names localizations to avoid awkward stuff like artifacts being named "The Secret Tome of _DEBUG_") but I expect better from named faiths that are meant to be playable.

The first instance you mention is probably a localization bug as the "witch god" of Slavic faith in game files is indeed Veles. Most of the faiths in the game have the slot filled in a flavourful manner: Hinduism has Kali, Asatru has Freya, etc. "Horned God" for Christianity stands out in a bad way as it's just a Wicca figure transplanted into the past.

Many pagan faiths have as name the modern reconstruction name. It might be off putting to use another faith’s deity or a real historical figure’s name as the name for Christianity’s evil deity.

An alternative to using the horned god would be beelzebub, who by Jesus’ time was seen as the prince of demons.

 

[Eltar1]

A placeholder name might be fine for the generic "Paganism" placeholder faith (in case a character revives it, it needs deity names localizations to avoid awkward stuff like artifacts being named "The Secret Tome of _DEBUG_") but I expect better from named faiths that are meant to be playable.

The first instance you mention is probably a localization bug as the "witch god" of Slavic faith in game files is indeed Veles. Most of the faiths in the game have the slot filled in a flavourful manner: Hinduism has Kali, Asatru has Freya, etc. "Horned God" for Christianity stands out in a bad way as it's just a Wicca figure transplanted into the past.

That was way back when the game first released, I think they patched it in since.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Many pagan faiths have as name the modern reconstruction name. It might be off putting to use another faith’s deity or a real historical figure’s name as the name for Christianity’s evil deity.

An alternative to using the horned god would be beelzebub, who by Jesus’ time was seen as the prince of demons.

Christianity already has historical Saints on its god list, I don't think Herodias would stand out

The issue with Belzebub, Lucifer, etc is that we don't have any proof Satanist societies actually existed. Magical invocations (in the West & MENA -- I'm not that familiar with Tantra and other "magic types" further East) we know of were addressed to God, angels, former pagan deities, saints and other deceased people, and supernatural creatures like fairies, elves, djinns, etc.

I say "former pagan deities" because there was no "witch religion" rival to Catholicism in the manner of Catharism or Islam. Diana and Hekate in Italy, Wotan and Holda in Germanic countries, were:

a) perceived by the common folk (learned clergymen had different ideas ofc) as forces ambivalent or perhaps unfriendly to God but not on the scale of Satan;

b) thought of as actual people who were misremembered as deities by "stupid pagans" (Hermes Trismegistos of course, Diana merging with Herodias I mentioned earlier, but the most hilarious example would be the Christian Scandinavian dynasties claiming descent from Odin, he totally was a human king, trust us bro…)

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Pasting some wishful thinking from an earlier thread:

I'm all for historically accurate witchcraft. Give me alchemists, folk healers, and miracle makers. Hermeticism and Herodiana in Europe, Vodou in Africa, Tantra in South Asia. But Horned God covens belong to a Wicca mod, not the main game.

By the way, pasting an interesting link about Tibetan magic: https://rubinmuseum.org/spiral/war-magic-the-wizarding-world-of-tibetan-sorcery

It's no small task of course, so in the meantime I'll be relatively satisfied with a simple name change in the god list.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Christianity already has historical Saints on its god list, I don't think Herodias would stand out

The issue with Belzebub, Lucifer, etc is that we don't have any proof Satanist societies actually existed. Magical invocations (in the West & MENA -- I'm not that familiar with Tantra and other "magic types" further East) we know of were addressed to God, angels, former pagan deities, saints and other deceased people, and supernatural creatures like fairies, elves, djinns, etc.

I say "former pagan deities" because there was no "witch religion" rival to Catholicism in the manner of Catharism or Islam. Diana and Hekate in Italy, Wotan and Holda in Germanic countries, were:

a) perceived by the common folk (learned clergymen had different ideas ofc) as forces ambivalent or perhaps unfriendly to God but not on the scale of Satan;

b) thought of as actual people who were misremembered as deities by "stupid pagans" (Hermes Trismegistos of course, Diana merging with Herodias I mentioned earlier, but the most hilarious example would be the Christian Scandinavian dynasties claiming descent from Odin, he totally was a human king, trust us bro…)

saints exist in the database because there has to be a name for each category. The saints take the place of the pagan gods because each saint was the patron of that particle god's realm. I think that there were some "heresies" during the middle ages that disapproved of invoking patron saints for intercession. So for those faiths, it wouldn't make much sense to use the saints in their events.

Since we don't have any evidence of actual satanic worship in christian lands, I think using Beelzebub instead of the Horned god is acceptable in game.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Since we don't have any evidence of actual satanic worship in christian lands, I think using Beelzebub instead of the Horned god is acceptable in game.

Lack of evidence for satanic societies is precisely why I dislike the idea of making witches "satan worshippers" who praise Belzebub or any other prince of Hell

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Lack of evidence for satanic societies is precisely why I dislike the idea of making witches "satan worshippers" who praise Belzebub or any other prince of Hell

Jezebel could be an alternative. In the book of Revelation she had become associated with sexual perversion.

 

[vyshan]

Honestly IMO the witch trait shouldn't really even be a thing. We have plenty of accounts of people who dealt with magicians in europe, heck the gesta Herewardi has a funny scene where King William's knights hire a local witch to try and curse Hereward the wake.

Furthermore the actual various magical beliefs and practices already IMO fall under other traits like herbalist and mystic. There is little reason IMO to have witch and mystic. The actual magical beliefs would fall under traits like Mystic IMO.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Honestly IMO the witch trait shouldn't really even be a thing. We have plenty of accounts of people who dealt with magicians in europe, heck the gesta Herewardi has a funny scene where King William's knights hire a local witch to try and curse Hereward the wake.

Furthermore the actual various magical beliefs and practices already IMO fall under other traits like herbalist and mystic. There is little reason IMO to have witch and mystic. The actual magical beliefs would fall under traits like Mystic IMO.

Mystic is trying to enter a trance like state to communicate with the divine. And herbalist, while related to beliefs about witchcraft, can be separate from it. Trying to invoke the power of supernatural beings is what would separate witchcraft from others. Like taking some hair in a comb, doing stuff with it, then the person whose hair it is experiences something akin to a mental illness.

 

[Eltar1]

Tbh, I don't think the current way the game handles 'Witchcrat' is very good at all. They could change 'Horned God' to 'the devil' and it wouldn't really be that much more silly and 'historically inaccurate' than it is now. I think this 'Witchcraft' system would be better off being redone (maybe in some religion centric update), rather than trying to make the game's inherently silly portrayal make vaguely more sense. Cause really, did the King of France really convert the Byzantine Emperor to witchcraft by hiding in his bedroom and then speaking to him from beyond a curtain? That's just extremely silly.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Tbh, I don't think the current way the game handles 'Witchcrat' is very good at all. They could change 'Horned God' to 'the devil' and it wouldn't really be that much more silly and 'historically inaccurate' than it is now. I think this 'Witchcraft' system would be better off being redone (maybe in some religion centric update), rather than trying to make the game's inherently silly portrayal make vaguely more sense. Cause really, did the King of France really convert the Byzantine Emperor to witchcraft by hiding in his bedroom and then speaking to him from beyond a curtain? That's just extremely silly.

My suggestion is just a quick band-aid to address the most jarring element (medieval people using Wiccan terminology).

In the long term, I'd love to see an expansion dealing with the diverse forms of magic, mysticism, and folk wisdom from cultures across the map.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

My suggestion is just a quick band-aid to address the most jarring element (medieval people using Wiccan terminology).

In the long term, I'd love to see an expansion dealing with the diverse forms of magic, mysticism, and folk wisdom from cultures across the map.

From what I have read, the medieval Catholic church didn't believe that witches really existed for most of the period. Anyone who believed otherwise were either mentally ill or secretly a pagan.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

From what I have read, the medieval Catholic church didn't believe that witches really existed for most of the period. Anyone who believed otherwise were either mentally ill or secretly a pagan.

They weren't thought of as "witches" but the clergy still opposed them as a threat to social order and their own souls:

 

[GhostDanny]

Not sure why this Diana was demonised by the church, when she seemingly did pretty good work.
Kinda like a female Krampus... Reward the good, but more punish the bad.