Russia Survives WWI

[unmerged(88283)]

Ok, so, one alternate history scenario I haven't seen done yet is:

"What if the Russian Monarchy survives World War I?"

Now, this one has always intrigued me. As of yet, I haven't seen any alternate histories relating to this topic. So I figure I might as well go make a mod out of it.

Now, here's my problem:

Imperial Russian history isn't exactly my forte. That being said, I can't exactly formulate a scenario where the Russian Monarchy manages to survive the First World War.

And that's where you guys come in! =D

I need you to help me come up with a plausible scenario, point of divergence, etc. etc., so that the Russian Monarchy survives World War I, and keeps going to the point where the mod will be focused (1936 and onward, obviously.)

My only REAL idea was pulling Rasputin out of the picture. Without his influence over Alexandra, and consequently Nicholas, I was thinking Nicholas might hav been able to make more... Informed decisions. But I really doubt Rasputin did anything but spur on the fall of the Russian Empire. So caputs on that idea.

And, obviously, it will need a name. That, I'm still working on, too.

Thanks in advance anyone who contributes.

 

[Mrdie]

Ok, so, one alternate history scenario I haven't seen done yet is:

"What if the Russian Monarchy survives World War I?"

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324972
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223176

 

[unmerged(88283)]

No, I mean the MONARCHY (Not Kaiserreich, that's just the Whites, not necessarily the Monarchy.) SURVIVES WWI (PTEAP has no WWI. I want to see the Monarchy actually SURVIVE it.)

 

[GarrettK]

I believe there are some mods (or maybe just regular arm.) that have the russian monarchy in them, or at least a psuedo version of the monarchy

 

[unmerged(88283)]

I believe there are some mods (or maybe just regular arm.) that have the russian monarchy in them, or at least a psuedo version of the monarchy

Yeah... But I don't want it to be a releasable puppet or anything...

I actually want an alternate history scenario where the Russian Monarchy stays in power and the Russian Empire survives.

 

[Mrdie]

There were a few pro-Monarchy Whites along with the strange Mladorossi movement, though the latter would have either resulted in de facto absolute monarchy or de facto constitutional monarchy. (Since the movement had fascist tendencies, I'd say the latter)

 

[yourworstnightm]

Have the revolution not to happen for some weird reason, the Whites were useless in the civil war anyway.

 

[Mrdie]

Have the revolution not to happen for some weird reason

Maybe have an anti-peasant type like Trotsky take charge of the situation somehow and alienate the countryside, which would doom the Bolsheviks. Then again, Trotsky was a Menshevik until July of 1917 so yeah.

 

[Skarion]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377385

Even if the mod linked above a lot of the monarchy were killed by the Soviets during the revolution the monarchy is still alive and in control of the Russian empire (which currently is divided and at war with the Soviets).

 

[unmerged(88283)]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377385

Even if the mod linked above a lot of the monarchy were killed by the Soviets during the revolution the monarchy is still alive and in control of the Russian empire (which currently is divided and at war with the Soviets).

Once again, I LOVE all the mods you people are linking me, but it's not that I want to play as the Russian Monarchy in WWII or anything.

It's that I want to see an alternate scenario where the Russian Empire survives under the Romanovs in WWI.

It's the alternate scenario I'm looking for, mostly. Not the Russian Monarchy.

@Mrdie

The Mladorossis, though, were formed after WWI, as a direct result that the Russian Monarchy had been desposed.

The problem with the Trotsky scenario is that even if Trotsky had, say, stayed Menshevik (I imagine he had a large influence on the success of the Bolshevik revolution), the Menshevik revolution would still take place (A la Kaiserreich.), and Tsar Nicholas would still abdicate the throne.

@yourworstnightm

How the revolution doesn't happen is what I'm trying to figure out. =P

 

[Skarion]

Once again, I LOVE all the mods you people are linking me, but it's not that I want to play as the Russian Monarchy in WWII or anything.

It's that I want to see an alternate scenario where the Russian Empire survives under the Romanovs in WWI.

It's the alternate scenario I'm looking for, mostly. Not the Russian Monarchy.

You want a WW1 mod with the Romanovs?

Isn't that for Victoria?

The mod I linked gave you a mod that start in 1936 there the Romanovs has survived and are in power of the Russian empire.

 

[Mrdie]

(I imagine he had a large influence on the success of the Bolshevik revolution)

He had a large influence on the subsequent Russian Civil War, not the revolution. A lot of his support pre-civil war was based abroad, not much in Russia.

The collapse of the Czar's regime in March 1917 found Trotsky in New York City, editing a Russian radical newspaper, Novy Mir (New World)... Trotsky hastily booked passage for Russia. His trip was interrupted when the Canadian authorities arrested him at Halifax. After being held in custody for a month, he was released at the request of the Russian Provisional Government and sailed for Petrograd.

[....]

In August 1917, Trotsky made a sensational political somersault. After fourteen years of opposition to Lenin and the Bolsheviks, Trotsky applied for membership in the Bolshevik Party.

Lenin had repeatedly warned against Trotsky and his personal ambitions; but now, in the crucial struggle to establish a Soviet Government, Lenin's policy called for a united front of all revolutionary factions, groups and parties. Trotsky was the spokesman for a sizable group. Outside of Russia his name was better known than that of any other Russian revolutionary except Lenin. Moreover, Trotsky's unique talents as an orator, agitator and organizer could be used to great advantage by the Bolsheviks. Trotsky's application for membership in the Bolshevik Party was accepted.

Characteristically, Trotsky made a spectacular entry into the Bolshevik Party. He brought with him into the Party his entire motley following of dissident leftists. As Lenin humorously put it, it was like coming to terms with a "major power."

Trotsky became Chairman of the Petrograd Soviet, in which he had made his first revolutionary appearance in 1905. He held this position during the decisive days that followed. When the first Soviet Government was formed as a coalition of Bolsheviks, left Social Revolutionaries and former Mensheviks, Trotsky, became Foreign Commissar. His intimate knowledge of foreign languages and wide acquaintance with foreign countries fitted him for the post.

 

[Fulmen]

Maybe have an anti-peasant type like Trotsky take charge of the situation somehow and alienate the countryside, which would doom the Bolsheviks. Then again, Trotsky was a Menshevik until July of 1917 so yeah.

Most of the countryside actually didn't support the Bolsheviks (or Mensheviks, for that matter) in the first place. Lenin and his band of thugs used terror to bring the civilian population behind the Bolsheviks.

 

[Mrdie]

Most of the countryside actually didn't support the Bolsheviks (or Mensheviks, for that matter) in the first place. Lenin and his band of thugs used terror to bring the civilian population behind the Bolsheviks.

I don't recall the Bolsheviks acting like terrorists and ransoming people, etc. like many White soldiers and generals did. At least Lenin called for an alliance between the peasantry and proletarians whereas Trotsky didn't. The Bolsheviks did whatever they could to gain support in the countryside though, like supporting Pan-Turkists, creating the USSR (which produced various Republics), etc.

"The course taken by the revolution has confirmed the correctness of our reasoning. First, with the 'whole' of the peasants against the monarchy, against the landowners, against medievalism (and to that extent the revolution remains bourgeois, bourgeois-democratic). Then, with the poor peasants, with the semi-proletarians, with all the exploited, against capitalism, including the rural rich, the kulaks, the profiteers, and to that extent the revolution becomes a socialist one." (V. I. Lenin, Collected Works, Vol . 28, p. 300.)

"…all Russian workers and all the rural poor must fight with both hands and on two sides; with one hand – fight against all the bourgeois, in alliance with all the workers; and with the other hand – fight against the rural officials, against the feudal landlords, in alliance with all the peasants." (quoting Lenin, Kingston-Mann, Lenin and the Problem of the Marxist Peasant Revolution, 64.)

Compared to

"Thus, for example, articles can be found in which I expressed doubts about the future revolutionary role of the peasantry..." (Trotsky, Leon. The Permanent Revolution. English Ed. Militant Publishing Association, 1931.)

 

[Fulmen]

I don't recall the Bolsheviks acting like terrorists and ransoming people, etc. like many White soldiers and generals did. At least Lenin called for an alliance between the peasantry and proletarians whereas Trotsky didn't. The Bolsheviks did whatever they could to gain support in the countryside though, like supporting Pan-Turkists, creating the USSR (which produced various Republics), etc.

"The course taken by the revolution has confirmed the correctness of our reasoning. First, with the 'whole' of the peasants against the monarchy, against the landowners, against medievalism (and to that extent the revolution remains bourgeois, bourgeois-democratic). Then, with the poor peasants, with the semi-proletarians, with all the exploited, against capitalism, including the rural rich, the kulaks, the profiteers, and to that extent the revolution becomes a socialist one." (V. I. Lenin, Collected Works, Vol . 28, p. 300.)

"…all Russian workers and all the rural poor must fight with both hands and on two sides; with one hand – fight against all the bourgeois, in alliance with all the workers; and with the other hand – fight against the rural officials, against the feudal landlords, in alliance with all the peasants." (quoting Lenin, Kingston-Mann, Lenin and the Problem of the Marxist Peasant Revolution, 64.)

Compared to

"Thus, for example, articles can be found in which I expressed doubts about the future revolutionary role of the peasantry..." (Trotsky, Leon. The Permanent Revolution. English Ed. Militant Publishing Association, 1931.)

Not necessarily acting like terrorists nowadays (i.e. Al-Qaida etc.), but there was definitely other kinds of acts of terror such as rounding up a village and forcing them to support the Bolsheviks or be shot against the wall, blackmailing, assassinating politicians etc.

It's a well-known fact that the majority of the population did not volunteerally support the revolutionaries, especially in the countryside. They were forced to support them during and especially after the civil war. The only reason Lenin's purges of the classes weren't as huge as Stalin's were, was because Lenin died so early. Oh and for the record, I'm no fan of Trotsky either. And I'm well aware of his advocation of a direct world revolution.

Which reminds me of your quotes... Lenin said a lot of things while doing the other. For example in our case he officially recognized Finland her independence, but on the other hand sent huge piles of arms and gun trains to the Red rebels in Finland. It was Lenin's military aid to the Reds and his persuasion of their leaders (who were often quite moderate and non-radical compared to their Russian equivalents - in fact, if I recall correctly, Lenin called them cowards/traitors and threatened them etc. if they wouldn't rebel) to revolt that made them start the Finnish Civil War in the first place.

Shortly put, he "lent" us our independence, with the intention of couping the legal Finnish government with Finnish Reds, thus turning Finland into a Socialist/Communist state and then incorporating it into the new Soviet Russia, just like what happened with Ukraine, Crimea, the Caucasus and countless other nations that struggled to bring about their freedom when the Russian Empire collapsed.

This is just one example of the many lies that Lenin publically produced during his lifetime. Sad how many people still believe in them, as if they were blind sheep.

 

[unmerged(87183)]

After 1916 the Monarchy was dead, so if you do something that saves it, and you wan't it to be half way realistic it had to have happened before 1917.

And to be honest, the latest it really should happen is 1914. The losses of the Russians in that first year doomed the Tsar.

 

[unmerged(88283)]

You want a WW1 mod with the Romanovs?

Isn't that for Victoria?

The mod I linked gave you a mod that start in 1936 there the Romanovs has survived and are in power of the Russian empire.

No...

I want a scenario starting in 1936 where in the Romanovs/Russian Empire/Russian Monarchy SURVIVED WWI and stayed in power up until this point, not to mention all the global changes that would have resulted from a White, Monarchist Russia existing between 1918 and 1936.

 

[unmerged(88283)]

After 1916 the Monarchy was dead, so if you do something that saves it, and you wan't it to be half way realistic it had to have happened before 1917.

And to be honest, the latest it really should happen is 1914. The losses of the Russians in that first year doomed the Tsar.

Well, the PoD doesn't necessarily have to be IN WWI. I'd prefer it to be as close to WWI as humanly possible, of course, so that the world doesn't change TOO much up until WWI does happen.

I was thinking possibly the Romanovs implementing more reforms in the Russian Army after the Russo-Japanese war, or something?

 

[Shogun 144]

ZombieSlayer,

I see what you are saying.

In my opinion the critical flash point for the Romanov dynasty was the events of 1905, in both the course of the Russo-Japanese War and the Revolution.

It should be kept in mind that Japanese victory was never assured during the conflict and the Japanese themselves were always aware of that fact. The Japanese military's greatest fear was that the war would be dragged out as the longer the fighting lasted the greater forces Russia could bring to bear. Russian arrogance and ineptitude played a vital role, but many people underestimate just how close the Tsar came to triumph.

Should Russia win the Russo-Japanese War that would be enough to change the course of history. The prestige of the Romanov family would remain intact and the Revolution of 1905 would never happen. At least as it existed in OTL. Remember that it was the total collapse of the central government in the face of defeat that led to those events.

In the case that the Revolution of 1905 should go ahead I believe that much of the worst damage could have been avoided with out Bloody Sunday. Much of Russia's peasantry and other members of the lower classes viewed the Tsar in terms of a father figure. The massacre seriously harmed his credibility and undermined his popularity (which was still quite high). If the guards at the Winter Palace not been so nervous and not fired into the crowds then the events of that day would have peaceful (as the demonstrators planned, they took great precautions on their side to avoid violence).

Without Bloody Sunday to inflame the populace the radicals would no longer have a platform. I have no doubt they would still try, but the effect the SRs and their even more radical kin would have been greatly reduced.

Russia badly needed a liberal reform as autocracy was unsustainable in the 20th Century. In my mind should the optimal outcome result Russia would still have to deal with domestic terrorism, which claimed the lives of many of the empire's most promising political reformers.

Pyotr Stolypin for instance. Stolypin was a democratic strongman (dominating from 1906-1911) who possessed a vision of a modern, industrial, Russian Empire. He fought back against the revolutionaries with their own tactics, as he was willing to be as ruthless as them. His reforms ultimately signed his own death warrant as Lenin feared that Stolypin's agrarian measures and his attempts to create a wealthy peasant landowning class would render the radical platform worthless. Germany also feared Stolypin as a industrialized Russia would easily surpass them.

I believe that any of these ideas are a reasonably plausible POD.

 

[jamhaw]

I believe there are some mods (or maybe just regular arm.) that have the russian monarchy in them, or at least a psuedo version of the monarchy

All the Russia's as I recall had a republican Russia which could become monarchist.

The New Turtledove mod has a surviving Russian Monarchy however.