Russian leaders

[Tonioz]

At my side, as russian, i raised the topic at stats of russian leaders at snowball, and hope to procede objective information.

For now, of course, Uchakov is asked for revision, and indeed he was definetely great admiral.

 

[AndrewT]

I think you are saying something like "On my website [or possibly Snowball's website] I have raised the topic of the stats of Russian leaders in EU2, and I hope to follow up this post with some recommendations once the discussion is complete".

If so, fine, but there's no need to post a "warning" like this before you have anything to report. I would also prefer that at least some of the discussion take place in the general EU2 forum here, so I can judge the degree of agreement among the interested parties about any particular change.

 

[Tonioz]

i meant from my side, and not my site.

When i collect enough information, we`ll see what to do.

 

[Tonioz]

A list for Russian leaders suggestion:

1. Ushakov, 1770-1799, 4-4-3, admiral. ID 09204.
Admiral Ushakov was brilliant commander. During Russia-Turkish war 1787 - 1791 Ushakov defeated turkish fleet near Fedonisi (1788). OE fleet was twice more ships and 3 times more cannons.
Then he used own maneure tactic (while linear tactic was popular those years) to make loud victories over ottomans at Kaliakrija, island Tendra and Kerch. 1789 - Contr-Admiral. 1790 - commander of whole russian Black Sea fleet. 1793 - Vice-Admiral. 1799 - Admiral
During war against France at Med (1798-1800) Ushakov showed himself not only as amazing fleet commander when he assaulted Korfu, but as good politic and diplomat to establish greek republic of Seven Islands.
Suvorov saying about Ushakov: "I would dream to be even warrant officer at Korfu", so he rated the assault of island by fleet very good. At 1799 Ushakov sailed to Italy and took Naples. At this war Russia got by peace treaty Ionian islands with main fortress Korfu. At 1802 Tsar Alexander I decided there is no need in fleet and Ushakov was moved to Baltic sea. Ushakov retired at 1807
Suggest: "Fyodor Ushakov", 1775-1807, 6-5-5.
Link: Google or Wikipedia doesn`t know anything about his career, same as Kaliakrija battle. I found only russian language sources. That is typical for russian history.

2. Kholmski, 1460-1495, 3-2-3-1, general. ID 09160
The victory over Crimean khanstvo at 1468 at Murom. At 1469 - over Kazan. At 1471 - over Novgorod. Headed the army at the marche vs Livonian Order, so they should drop siege of Pskov and could reach good peace. Good commanding of front forces at Novgorod at 1477. Conquered Kazan in 1487.
Suggest: "Danilo Kholmski", 1460-1493, 4-2-4.

3. Kutuzov, 1805-1813, 3-4-3, general. ID 09229
The main achievement of Kutuzov are linked with won campaign over Napoleon, when he avoided battles using attrition for french army. Generally it is admitted like "old tactic of 18th century of the war for attrition". He avoided the battles until Borodino. And it was his decision to leave Moscow to Napoleon and don`t sign peace treaty, avoiding main conflict.
Suggest: "Mikhail Kutuzov", 1784-1813, 6-4-2-2.

4. Bagration, 1805-1812, 3-4-4-2, general. ID 09230
Good general, mostly skilled in artillery. Commanded right wing of Russian army at Borodino battle, most dangerous place. Got wounded and died several days later, and was blessed as russian hero.
Suggest: "Petr Bagration", 1788-1812, 3-5-3

 

[AndrewT]

Thanks for the effort! Are these the result of your own research only, or a more general discussion somewhere? I always like to see some concensus for changes in areas that I personally am not very familiar with.

 

[Tonioz]

There was discussion at the russian forum - snowball.ru/forum - it is strong eu2 forum of official localizer company since 2002. I`ll post more info about different leaders from this discussions.

There is just a problem that i can`t find good links at english to put it for discussion here. For example Wikipedia knows only picture about Ushakov. No detailed sources in Google about Russian-Turkish war 1787-1791 - another example. So i`ll try to give detailed information here, translating from russian.

By the way, the discussion at the russian forum came out from only russian leaders to Wellington (who is overrated according global opinion) and Moro and other napoleon generals. But this leaders have enough sources to be judjed here

 

[unmerged(18425)]

1. Ushakov, 1770-1799, 4-4-3, admiral. ID 09204.
Link: Google or Wikipedia doesn`t know anything about his career, same as Kaliakrija battle. I found only russian language sources. That is typical for russian history.

There's some info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Fyodorovich_Ushakov
http://www.100megsfree4.com/rusgeneral/ushakov.htm

He indeed seems to be an excellent admiral.

Suggest:

historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 09204 }
	category = admiral
	name = "Fyodor Ushakov"
	startdate = {
		year=1770
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1801 #Ushakov falls in disfavour
	}
	rank = 0
	movement = 6
	fire = 5
	shock = 5
	siege = 0
}

Suggest: "Danilo Kholmski", 1460-1493, 4-2-4.

Can't find info about him, so difficult to give an opinion

Suggest: "Mikhail Kutuzov", 1784-1813, 6-4-2-2.

Why the high siege? And movement '6' seems to be fairly high too, despite his evasion tactics.
I would rather suggest 5-4-2-0 for him. I agree that his shock should be low.

4. Bagration, 1805-1812, 3-4-4-2, general. ID 09230
Good general, mostly skilled in artillery. Commanded right wing of Russian army at Borodino battle, most dangerous place. Got wounded and died several days later, and was blessed as russian hero.
Suggest: "Petr Bagration", 1788-1812, 3-5-3

Don't agree with the start date of 1788. He only participated in a battle then, but wasn't a commander. The vanilla date of 1805 seems to be too late though. I suggest 1799 as a start date, the year that he went on campaign with Suvorov.
Vanillla has 3-4-4-2 stats for him, and while I do agree with you that his fire should be higher and his shock lower, I wonder why you removed his siege values? Artillery officiers should have decent siege values.

All in all, I suggest:

historicalleader = {
	category = general
	id = { type = 6 id = 09230 }
	name = "Petr Bagration"
	startdate = {
		year=1799
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 12
		month = september
		year=1812
	}
	rank = 1
	movement = 3
	fire = 5
	shock = 2
	siege = 1
}

 

[Norrefeldt]

Fyodor Ushakov
I haven't seen anything backing up a start year earlier than around 1787. Other very great leaders in the game (stats 5 and 6) did score victories on other named and decent leaders (stats 3 and 4). Unless Ushakov also did so, and it's been omitted in your descriptions, I don't think there's anything to back up higher than 4's.
Throwing in a 655 admiral for 30+ years shouldn't be done without consideration.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

I haven't seen anything backing up a start year earlier than around 1787.

Yes, that seems indeed to be the case. 1787 is the best start date for him.

Other very great leaders in the game (stats 5 and 6) did score victories of other named and decent leaders (stats 3 and 4). Unless Ushakov also did so, and it's been omitted in your descriptions, I don't think there's anything to back up higher than 4's.
Throwing in a 655 admiral for 30+ years shouldn't be done without consideration.

Hard to say how good he was with the lack of more sources. Ushakov didn't fight named leaders (apparently), but won many victories and is undefeated in his career. (Which is 14 years with a start date of 1787).
Suvorov mostly beat Turks too and has great stats and Ushakov looks to be the admiral version of Suvorov

But I guess that 5-4-4 stats are perhaps more reasonable if we don't have more information.

 

[Tonioz]

name = "Fyodor Ushakov"
startdate = {
year=1770
}
deathdate = {
year=1801 #Ushakov falls in disfavour

In 1802 Alexander I disband the fleet and Ushakov was sent to Baltic Sea to command galleys. I see that as state act, not leader retirement. So i offer 1807 and not 1802 as retire date.

About start dates - i always doubt where is the start date of leaders, so i don`t have objections about following corrections.

Why the high siege? And movement '6' seems to be fairly high too, despite his evasion tactics.
I would rather suggest 5-4-2-0 for him. I agree that his shock should be low.

Maybe 5, not 6. The Russian army was splitted when Napoleon invaded. But Kutuzov generally made very good things in maneuvres and made only one major battle - Borodino, which was not lost by Russians, but finally decided to leave Moscow anyway.

Don't agree with the start date of 1788. He only participated in a battle then, but wasn't a commander.

Bagration was noticed after battle of Ochakovo in 1788, but indeed he was commander later.

Artillery officiers should have decent siege values.

Well, probably your point is more correct.

 

[Tonioz]

Fyodor Ushakov
I haven't seen anything backing up a start year earlier than around 1787. Other very great leaders in the game (stats 5 and 6) did score victories of other named and decent leaders (stats 3 and 4). Unless Ushakov also did so, and it's been omitted in your descriptions, I don't think there's anything to back up higher than 4's.
Throwing in a 655 admiral for 30+ years shouldn't be done without consideration.

Ushakov got congratulations from Suvorov and Nelson, highest state award from Sultan Selim. His personalized as brave admiral and he won battles by using not classic linear tactic, but fast maneuvres, so he made inventions.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Ushakov got congratulations from Suvorov and Nelson, highest state award from Sultan Selim. His personalized as brave admiral and he won battles by using non-classic linear tactic with fast maneuvres, so he made inventions.

OK. I'd give him give him a 6 in fame then.
For congratulations and awards, military ability plays only a part.

 

[AndrewT]

Looks like we have a bit of discussion to go here.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

Looks like we have a bit of discussion to go here.

But it's a discussion without much sources, which makes it hard to conclude things, unfortunately.

Perhaps the consensus can be that we give Ushakov 5-4-4 ?

 

[unmerged(18425)]

In 1802 Alexander I disband the fleet and Ushakov was sent to Baltic Sea to command galleys. I see that as state act, not leader retirement. So i offer 1807 and not 1802 as retire date.

IIRC, It doesn't really matter why the leader was inactive. Can be because he was ill, old, crazy or because his wife said he should stay at home with her. If history says the leader was inactive, it should be true for leader file too.

About start dates - i always doubt where is the start date of leaders, so i don`t have objections about following corrections.

Most of the time a start date is taken when the leader actually commanded something of the size of an army/fleet in EU2.

 

[Tonioz]

Ushakov commanded own ship since 1775.
I believe 6-5-5 is fair for him.
At vanilla he is 3-4-4, if you suggest 5-4-4, not much change, while we all notified he was very good admiral, better than everybody thought, while played him in vanilla

 

[unmerged(18425)]

Well, try to convince norre

 

[Tonioz]

Well, try to convince norre

better i`ll pay him

 

[BiB]

I'd have to side with Norre

 

[Norrefeldt]

3. Kutuzov, 1805-1813, 3-4-3, general. ID 09229
The main achievement of Kutuzov are linked with won campaign over Napoleon, when he avoided battles using attrition for french army. Generally it is admitted like "old tactic of 18th century of the war for attrition". He avoided the battles until Borodino. And it was his decision to leave Moscow to Napoleon and don`t sign peace treaty, avoiding main conflict.
Suggest: "Mikhail Kutuzov", 1784-1813, 6-4-2-2.

I think you provide too little information of battles. With only the questionable source of Wikipedia to back it up, he didn't have any independent commands before 1805, in the Napoleonic wars. He "won the hard-fought action of Dürrenstein on 11 November 1805", don't know who was the opponent. According to the same source his next big battle was Austrlitz, where the Austrian tactic was follow and K. fell alsleep under the preparations, and was wounded in the ensuing battle. Commander in the inconclusive battle of Borodino on 26 August 1812, against Napoleon, not a bad accomplishment at all!
Since I don't know anything about sieges he concluded, I think siege should still be 0. For his attrition warfare I'd give high movement, so I suggest 6-4-3-0, with years 1805 - 28 April 1813, as he died in battle.