Sanusia...I've become obsessed

[unmerged(6826)]

SEeing Sanusia interested me...I had never heard of them, and I've been doing some research. "In 1914 the Sanusis counterattacked in Fezzan, quickly wiping out recent Italian gains there, and in April 1915 they inflicted heavy casualties on an Italian column at Qasr Bu Hadi in the Sirtica. Captured rifles, artillery, and munitions fueled a subsequent Sanusi strike into Tripolitania, but the success of the campaign was compromised by the traditional hostility that existed between the beduins and the nationalists. " from http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-8135.html

The Fezzan is the province of Sahba in Hoi.

Qasr Bu Hadi is 150 miles south of Surt, in the Sirt province. In HOI, this means that they would have t ocontrol Zallah to get there, and then be able to successfully attack Surt. So I think they ought to have some technology, or some way to attack the Italians with out dying automatically. Then they went on to attack Tripolitania. Here I would like to see an event: Ally with nationalists, gain a unit, or not, and the italians gains units to drive you out.

After the event to join the central poweres, there should be an event, 1915, Turkey asks you to attack British Egypt. "On November 14th, 1915, Arab tribesmen, supporters of the powerful Senussi movement, opened fire at a British-Egyptian border post at As-Sallum. ," http://www.wargames.co.uk/RandomS/Shorts/senussi.htm
This should give you cores on al hariga, al quattara, matruh and sidi barrani. Actually, al hariga fell in feb 1916, and al quattara (province) april 1916. The two northern provinces by feb 1916. Eventually, the Brits should take all back, al hariga soon, al quattara 2/5/1917. Note, when Siwa, in al quattara province fell, they had "Sanusi's two ten pound cannons, two machine guns and 800 small arms" http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/siwahistory.htm
This means they ought to have some sort of artilley techs, and maybe bolt action rifles.

After the British successes (control of egyptian provinces is lost) an event where Ahmad flees, which removes claims on Britain, and then a second for Idris comes to power, with peace being made with Itlay and britain


This all suggests:
1) less italian troops in libya
2)tech and possibly units for the senussi beduins

Italian strength should be somewhat lower. I would maybe give the senussi cavalry to represent their speed, instead of militia.

I've never scripted HOI events and I don't really know how this mod is being organized...but I felt the need to do research on sanusia/senussi. Feel free to use it

 

[Allenby]

Here I would like to see an event: Ally with nationalists, gain a unit, or not, and the italians gains units to drive you out.

Could you expand on this? Who are the nationalists?

Eventually, the Brits should take all back, al hariga soon, al quattara 2/5/1917. Note, when Siwa, in al quattara province fell, they had "Sanusi's two ten pound cannons, two machine guns and 800 small arms"

This would require increasing the province infrastructure in the Saharan desert. Leaving it at the current low level means that the Sanussi are generally safe from attack, and they themselves resort to occupying surrounding provinces irrespective of infrastructure. However, if we were to increase the infrastructure in the region, then it is somewhat inevitable that the British or Italians are going to beat the very easily. Therefore, it's difficult to find the middle ground.

1) less italian troops in libya

If the Senussi occupy all of Libya except the coastal strip, the Italians have a tendency of sending upward of twenty divisions to the colony to defend it, while leaving the front with Austria-Hungary or France bare.... :wacko:

I would maybe give the senussi cavalry to represent their speed, instead of militia.

I think Light Infantry might be more appropriate.

Also, I'll have this merged with a much more suitable thread.

 

[StephenT]

Note, when Siwa, in al quattara province fell, they had "Sanusi's two ten pound cannons, two machine guns and 800 small arms" http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/siwahistory.htm
This means they ought to have some sort of artilley techs, and maybe bolt action rifles.

The rifles, perhaps. 10-pounder cannon were obsolete in Napoleon's time. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if these actually were cannon left behind by his army after he invaded Egypt.

 

[unmerged(6826)]

Hmm...I'll see if I can answer your questions. Just for the record, this is all after some internet research last night; I'm a high school student in America, not a History major, or anyone with prior knowledge about this region.

Could you expand on this? Who are the nationalists?

The nationalists were apparently the people of the coastal cities. They resisted joining with the bedouins, which was a large reason the Senussis never got anywhere after Qasr Bu Hadi

This would require increasing the province infrastructure in the Saharan desert. Leaving it at the current low level means that the Sanussi are generally safe from attack, and they themselves resort to occupying surrounding provinces irrespective of infrastructure. However, if we were to increase the infrastructure in the region, then it is somewhat inevitable that the British or Italians are going to beat the very easily. Therefore, it's difficult to find the middle ground.

I'd say to leave the infra as is, but maybe give them more supply in order that they're units don't die

If the Senussi occupy all of Libya except the coastal strip, the Italians have a tendency of sending upward of twenty divisions to the colony to defend it, while leaving the front with Austria-Hungary or France bare.... :wacko:

Yeah, I've noticed in my games that after taking the 3 desert provinces in Libya, every coastal province has a garrison. Maybe this has to do with the AI files?

I think Light Infantry might be more appropriate.

Well, something beyond militia. They won a number of battles against the Italians and British; that's impossible now.

I'd like to learn how to script events, and I have some ideas for event sequences.

 

[unmerged(6826)]

The rifles, perhaps. 10-pounder cannon were obsolete in Napoleon's time. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if these actually were cannon left behind by his army after he invaded Egypt.

But still, as it is, the Sanusians start with 1 technology. 1!

Maybe there are some techs dealing with desert warfare?

 

[unmerged(6826)]

Alrite, I loaded up as Italy (I've never actually played a full TGW campaign yet, just my tests after seeing sanusia), to look at their situaion and techs.

I would suggest: 1) More vps in tripoli
2) lower infra in bir el hakim-the east should fall to the sanusis
3)techs-camouflage clothing? Cavalry shock? Mass unit skirmish formation?
I'd like to also see the level 1 cavalry tech and home front tech maybe

Oh, and I gave in to sanusian demands, just to see. They should have demands on all of Libya, not just the desert

 

[Allenby]

I can't say I'm particularly keen on giving the Senussi tech advances that they may not merit. From what I can ascertain, there seems to be scant technological difference between them and the Ansar that fought Kitchener in 1898 (or that fought Gordon in 1885 or Hicks in 1883).

Some British and Italian events - 'War with the Senussi' - may be appropriate in dealing with what might be considered a realistic portrayal of the war in the Western Desert, although they should ensure that the Senussi aren't exaggerated in their importance with regards to the war in the Middle East, and to the war generally.

 

[unmerged(27944)]

If the Senussi occupy all of Libya except the coastal strip, the Italians have a tendency of sending upward of twenty divisions to the colony to defend it, while leaving the front with Austria-Hungary or France bare.... :wacko:

Tsk these stupid italians, and then talking about Hemingway statement "italians are marvelous fighters" ... :nonono:


Memento audere semper.

 

[unmerged(27944)]

Ah almost I forget: I'm afraid you should give all belligerant nations a bonus in technology.
Arditi for example were used since 1916 to assault trenches ( in fact the name means soldier who dare to attempt the impossible, just to mean it in D'Annunzio's way ), but italian industrial capacity and how it's structured the tech tree make virtually impossibile to obtain it in 1916.
Then several divisions are missing. For example, Julia alpine division.

 

[unmerged(6826)]

I started writing some events. Please tell me if these work, and if they make sense. I also need to know what Italian ids are not taken so I can write their events ceding Libya. Do you also now understand why I think Libya should maybe be worth a few more vps? My only question is how do I make the last event not happen instanteously? I have not yet tested these events.

# Sanusia has retaken the Fezzan

event = { 
    country = U02
    id = 49003
    random = no 
    style = 0 

    name = "Sanusia has retaken the Fezzan" 
    desc = "In 1914 the Sanusis recaptured the Fezzan, southwestern Libya, wiping out Italian advances there" 

    trigger = { 
        war = { country = ITA country = U02 }
       control = { province = 1084 data = U02 }	
    } 

    date = { day = 0 month = september year = 1914 } 
    offset = 20 
    deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1925 } 

    action_a = { 
        name = "We will retake more of our homeland soon" 
        command = { type = supplies value = 100 } 
        command = { type = dissent value = -1}
    } 
}

# Battle at Qasr Bu Hadi

event = { 
    country = U02
    id = 49004
    random = no 
    style = 0 

    name = "Sanusis attack at Qasr Bu Hadi" 
    desc = "In April 1915, the Sanusis attacked an Italian column at Qasr Bu Hadi, near Sirt.  After winning this 

battle, they captured some rifles, artillery and munitions." 

    trigger = { 
        war = { country = ITA country = U02 }
        control = { province = 1087 data = U02 }
    } 

    date = { day = 0 month = september year = 1914 } 
    offset = 20 
    deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1925 } 

    action_a = { 
        name = "Great, the Italians will soon be gone" 
        command = { type = supplies value = 250 } 
        command = { type = gain_tech which = 14002 }
        command = { type = trigger which = 49005 }
    } 
}

# Ally with the nationalists?  Triggered by 49004

event = { 
    country = U02
    id = 49005
    random = no 
    style = 0 

    name = "Should we deal with the urban nationalists?" 
    desc = "After their victory at Qasr Bu Hadi, some Sanusis speculated that an alliance with the urban nationalists 

in Tripoli might advance their cause.  Most disagreed, relying on the traditional hostility between the two." 

    trigger = { 
        war = { country = ITA country = U02 }
        control = { province = 1087 data = U02 }
    } 

    date = { day = 0 month = september year = 1914 } 
    offset = 20 
    deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1925 } 

    action_a = { 
        name = "They don't understand what we are fighting for" 
        command = { type = dissent value = -10 } 
        command = { type = trigger value = 49006}
    } 
    action_b = { 
        name = "Absolutly!  Together we will crush the Italians" 
        command = { type = dissent value = 10 } 
        command = { type = trigger which = 49007}
    } 
}

# Ally with the nationalists?  No

event = { 
    country = U02
    id = 49006
    random = no 
    style = 0 

    name = "We will fight by ourselves" 
    desc = "We have chosen not to ally with the nationalists" 

    trigger = { 
    } 

    date = { day = 0 month = september year = 1914 } 
    offset = 20 
    deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1925 } 

    action_a = { 
        name = "Ok" 
    } 

# Ally with the nationalists?  Yes

event = { 
    country = U02
    id = 49007
    random = no 
    style = 0 

    name = "We will fight with the nationalists" 
    desc = "We have chosen to ally with the nationalists" 

    trigger = { 
    } 

    date = { day = 0 month = september year = 1914 } 
    offset = 20 
    deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1925 } 

    action_a = { 
        name = "Ok" 
    } 

}
# Fall of Tripoli (with nationalist help)

event = { 
    country = U02
    id = 49008
    random = no 
    style = 0 

    name = "Tripoli has fallen" 
    desc = "After their victory at Qasr Bu Hadi, the Sanusis allied with the urban nationalists, and together they 

took Tripoli, the most important city in Libya.  A treaty has been organized with Italy, ceding all of Libya to us.  

The nationalists also want to begin more urbanization." 

    trigger = { 
        war = { country = ITA country = U02 }
        control = { province = 1085 data = U02 }
        event = 49007
    } 

    date = { day = 0 month = september year = 1914 } 
    offset = 20 
    deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1925 } 

    action_a = { 
        name = "Sounds good" 
        command = { type = dissent value = -5 } 
        command = { type = peace which = ITA value = 1}
        command = { type = industry which = -1 value = 1}
        command = { type = industry which = -1 value = 1}
    } 
    action_b = { 
        name = "There can never be peace with Italy" 
        command = { type = dissent value = 5 } 
    } 
}

# Fall of Tripoli (without nationalist help)

event = { 
    country = U02
    id = 49008
    random = no 
    style = 0 

    name = "Tripoli has fallen" 
    desc = "After their victory at Qasr Bu Hadi, the Sanusis attacked and captured Tripoli, the most important city 

in Libya.  A treaty has been organized with Italy, ceding all of Libya to us. " 

    trigger = { 
        war = { country = ITA country = U02 }
        control = { province = 1085 data = U02 }
        event = 49006
    } 

    date = { day = 0 month = september year = 1914 } 
    offset = 20 
    deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1925 } 

    action_a = { 
        name = "Sounds good" 
        command = { type = dissent value = -5 } 
        command = { type = peace which = ITA value = 1}

    } 
    action_b = { 
        name = "There can never be peace with Italy" 
        command = { type = dissent value = 5 } 
    } 
}
# Civil war after tripoli falls

event = { 
    country = U02
    id = 49008
    random = no 
    style = 0 

    name = "The nationalists are unhappy" 
    desc = "After capturing Tripoli, some of the nationalists have become very unhappy with bedouin rule. " 

    trigger = { 
        event = 49008
    } 

    date = { day = 0 month = september year = 1914 } 
    offset = 20 
    deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1925 } 

    action_a = { 
        name = "Uh oh" 
        command = { type = dissent value = 15 } 
    } 
}

 

[Allenby]

I also need to know what Italian ids are not taken so I can write their events ceding Libya

The progress page at the website - www.hoi-tgw.tk has a listing of Italian IDs currently being used - you can choose IDs from those not present.

My only question is how do I make the last event not happen instanteously?

You could increase the offset in event 48009 from 20 to something much lengthier...

These look quite good, although it would be a great help if you could test them yourself and adjust them accordingly, as you already have a game set up with Sanusia

Also, I'm sceptical as to whether Italy would accept peace with the Senussi even if they did occupy Tripoli. I think it would require a high rate of internal dissent in Italy for the government to be compelled to seek some compromise with the Sensussi.

Are there any events coming up dealing with the coming to power of Idris?

 

[unmerged(6826)]

The progress page at the website - www.hoi-tgw.tk has a listing of Italian IDs currently being used - you can choose IDs from those not present.

You could increase the offset in event 48009 from 20 to something much lengthier...

These look quite good, although it would be a great help if you could test them yourself and adjust them accordingly, as you already have a game set up with Sanusia

Also, I'm sceptical as to whether Italy would accept peace with the Senussi even if they did occupy Tripoli. I think it would require a high rate of internal dissent in Italy for the government to be compelled to seek some compromise with the Sensussi.

Are there any events coming up dealing with the coming to power of Idris?

My events for Italy would have no as first choice. The problem is, with my current sanusi games, i have one militia-not enough to even consider attacking sirt. I think they're OOB should start as 1 cav and 2 inf, but that might be a little high. Would an offset of, say 1000, be a good amount of time?

I have planned some more events, including "The Ottomans ask us to rejoin their power"-puppeting, and the basic techs in all doctrines. I will try to write more ASAP.

 

[unmerged(6826)]

1 comment looknig at that site: Are the peace treaty events set in stone? I'd like to maybe see an event for libya to be ceded to Sanusia. As of now it is Ottomans. Maybe to Ottomans, and then they decide to give it to Sanusia?

 

[unmerged(6826)]

These haven't worked so far...

 

[Allenby]

Would an offset of, say 1000, be a good amount of time?

200 sounds reasonable.

I have planned some more events, including "The Ottomans ask us to rejoin their power"-puppeting, and the basic techs in all doctrines. I will try to write more ASAP.

If the Senussi managed to throw out the Italians, I sense that they would be reluctant to accept Ottoman dominion. It isn't that the Senussi looked upon the Turks with hatred, but I think that they would have preferred to rule themselves.

Are the peace treaty events set in stone? I'd like to maybe see an event for libya to be ceded to Sanusia. As of now it is Ottomans. Maybe to Ottomans, and then they decide to give it to Sanusia?

It depends on who managed to get Libya. If the Senussi managed to occupy it, then they would have it, but if it was left untouched, then the Germans would sooner give it to the Turkis than have the Saharan Bedouins sit at the conference table...

 

[unmerged(6826)]

200 sounds reasonable.

If the Senussi managed to throw out the Italians, I sense that they would be reluctant to accept Ottoman dominion. It isn't that the Senussi looked upon the Turks with hatred, but I think that they would have preferred to rule themselves.

It depends on who managed to get Libya. If the Senussi managed to occupy it, then they would have it, but if it was left untouched, then the Germans would sooner give it to the Turkis than have the Saharan Bedouins sit at the conference table...

I agree with you on all points. But I don't understancd why the events didn't work? They pointed to the line where a choice was name = okay, with no commands...is that a problem?

 

[Allenby]

Try removing the trigger and dates of events 49005, 49006 and 49007.

These events are triggered by commands in other events - 'trigger which = xxxx' which automatically allows the subsequent event to appear. However, giving these triggers and dates tends to hamper this process.

 

[unmerged(6826)]

So just cut out the three lines having to do with dates?

 

[Allenby]

and the lines that say:

trigger = { 
       }

 

[unmerged(6826)]

Thanks, with a few other fixes they now work fine. For the Italian events, I have a question: Can an event create peace if peace already exists? Or likewise, can it create war if a war is ongoing?

BTW, I have been playing with a save file of Jan 1 1914 where the Sanusi army consists of 1 cav and 2 infantry. Now, I can defend against the Italians in Zallah, which is good, but they still put a dozen divisions along the coast. Attacking Sirt or Tripoli will be impossible.