Save the Extended Range

[unmerged(699753)]

Ever since SotS Prime, 1.0 there was this interesting mission section called Extended Range. Back then it even made sense for Sol-Force. Most other species had to calcualte wheter it would be better to send a ER or just shell out the slightly more expensive (but also much longer ranged) Tankers for this role instead.

Then SotS2 happened, Sol Fleets can now refuel in transit like everyone else and every fleet must have an admiral and a CnC to work. So suddenly ER ships are de facto useless. Sure they can increase fleet endurance (as the middle value of fleet endurance seems to be used). But as tankers have to go on the battlefield anyway (so arming and armoring them is less of an issue) you can just take one tanker and a decent amount of battleships instead of a bunch of ER. And still likely end up ahead.

Here some ideas on how to make them usefull again:
- Consider allowing survey missions to not require an Admiral (similar to reserve Transfer missions), but then only ships that can go in such a admiral-less fleet is ships with ER mision section.
- Consider letting the ER ships count as "micro CnC". Each ship only adds enough CP to have itself in the fleet (6 CP or 18 CP for Dread ER). But multiple ER add thier CP values till they hit the CnC maximum (So 5 ER ships would provide and comsume 30 CP, but you can't go beyond to total max of 54 for a CnC at start)
- As they are supposed to be scouts, they should have improved survey ability. Right now travel time takes up a insignificant amount of time, the survey time is the most significant amoutn. And mostly I just throw CnC+Drone Cariers a it, as Drones seems to reduce scounting times quite a bit.
- consider making them a single Section Destroyer sized ship with a destroyer sized Upkeep (500/ship) and CP (2 CP/ship) cost. That would allow to have more along for less production/upkeep cost (wich could improve survey times).

Otherwise you might as well take them out and let the AI throw Dronecarriers at the problem, as drones became a starting tech anyway.

 

[Ulzgoroth]

Remember, this is SotS II, and these are cruisers. There were ER cruisers in SotS I too...and they were very seldom used.

I'd suggest giving another look at just how effective 'tankers' are, though. You don't just throw one supply cruiser in a fleet and have done. At least, not with the races I've looked at. My survey fleets are not infrequently half supply ships. Even my battlefleets need several if they're intended to loiter in-system for any length of time.

And the supply ships are extremely poor in a fight. They can't carry much armor or firepower. You can get a little supporting fire out of them if you invest in it, but I'd usually suggest keeping them well out of the way (like a command cruiser, which is similarly weakly armed, costly, vital, and has no practical need to be near the action).

In theory, swapping armor cruisers and supply ships for ER cruisers and fewer supply ships in dedicated scout fleets could be a good move. Can't say whether the numbers work out though. And obviously there's the competing appeal of drones.

 

[Tavior]

For Horde Zuul:

Hammerhead + Supply mission + fusion (All weapon are gauss cannon no poly enchance):

64 usage out of 260 supply
10 energy used out of 60
49 crew out of 78

8 turn endurance

Armament:
two boarding pods
four small turrets
eight medium turrets
one large turret

One module slot: standard engine module slot.

85,250 saving cost + 6,100 construction cost

---

Hammerhead + ER mission + Fusion Engine (Same weapon option + no poly enchance):

62 supply out of 135
8 energy out of 75
38 crew out of 78

3 turn endurance

Armament:
Five small turrets
Six medium turrets
Two large turrets

Two module slots: One from ER mission and one standard Engine module slot

52,150 Saving cost + 5000 construction cost

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If you still think ER are entirely useless? You are mistaken. ER get one extra large turret and one module slot while losing two boarding pods and two medium turrets and some supply. If you want more firepower while being cheaper and faster to built; then the clear winner is CR ER mission. I don't understand why you think CR ER are useless. Each racial ER has an unique something that make them well unique.

 

[unmerged(699753)]

I usualyl arm Command, Supply, R&S ships and the like with PD and missiles. So they stay way enoug hout of way. I also armor them as far as possible - if it is on the battle field and being shootable, it shoudl be armed and armored. The old trick of havign totally unarmed and armored Utility ships in reserve is not working in 2. With the small except of R&S ships, that may be in a specialised Support fleet.
There is one exception: I am resonable certain (or know) thiere will be no foes with Drones and play Loa. In that situation I may use a "light" CNC & R&S to save cubes for battleships. But for all other races, i only built one type of R&S and only one type of Supply: The one that can defend itself agaisnt drones.

Because even in the worst case scenarios of the fleets starting on top of each other, I can easily order the supprot ships to run away. while the Armor press the attack.

In both your cases, your Ships way to much supply (balistics & mass drivers I guess), wich greatly cuts into the supply they can carry for the fleet. My Supply ships tend to have up to 14 Turns Endurance (20 with Plasma Focussing).

Also the above comparsion of ER and Supply overlooks something: The job of a Supply ship is to supply armor ships. How many Armors could you put to that Supply ship before you hit combiend endurance 3? And would an equal ammount of ER have remotely the same firepower?
How many if actually keep in mind to minimise Supply usage for that Supply?

 

[Ulzgoroth]

Also the above comparsion of ER and Supply overlooks something: The job of a Supply ship is to supply armor ships. How many Armors could you put to that Supply ship before you hit combiend endurance 3? And would an equal ammount of ER have remotely the same firepower?
How many if actually keep in mind to minimise Supply usage for that Supply?

Very few armors are needed to drag the supply ship down if they're armed with ballistics, which seems fairly likely for Zuul. However, the Zuul ER probably has little more than half the firepower.

I found the following in the wiki while investigating that. I'm not sure what it means, but it might be worth building some and seeing:

Most ships operate at double their endurance value only inside the supply range of colonies and stations. Ships with the Extended Range mission section operate at double their endurance value at all times, even outside the supply range of colonies and stations.

 

[Tavior]

Horde Zuul in general prefer to use ballistic because most of the high end energy are usually unavailable for them (Low Feasible chance and all that). In a real practical game I wouldn't use the setup I provided at least that I agree with you.

I only used simple mass driver because then I won't have to deal with conversion between "energy or ballistic" supply vs "energy or ballistic" extend range; which is actually a four way comparison. I was only looking AT max supply without any external factors thrown in the mix. Some modules also provide some amount of supply despite not made for that like Dreadnought size mission torpedoes giving some supply and energy on it's own. I don't want to throw in too many technology that affect supply such as antimatter, giving higher mileage per endurance (distance travel in a turn multiple endurance equal effective mission range etc...). Heck there are even passive technologies that improve your supply amount (vacuum preservation).

Now do you see why I want to keep it simple? Same weapon on both supply and ER, then I don't have to deal with energy vs ballistic or even end-game weapons comparison. Turn 1 tech only so I don't have to deal with different engine section, technologies, and modules all for the sake of simplicity.


TL;DR: I don't think ER need saving. They do fill a niche as a bridge between providing firepower and having great endurance. Personally I think there are other problems that need to be addressed before looking at ER.