Should country ranks be a regional mechanic for Europe?

[Druplesnubb]

The country rank system with counties, duchies, kingdoms and empires has always seemed to me to mainly fit the European view of states, with their strong feudalism, the requirement of being acknowledged by the pope to call yourself king, and the restriction of the emperor title to Rome. Whenever applied to other regions, this system seems to struggle bit, and I've been considering that maybe the whole country rank system should just be an exclusively European thing? That said, I'm not enough of an expert on world history to say conclusively that it would be better that way.

 

[Palfouri]

I don't know if it needs to be scrapped but it definitely needs some revision because to me, it seems like there's too many counties outside Europe and their rankings seem to be based much more on (English-language) historiographical conventions and a desire to buff protagonist countries than an actual assessment of their "power level".
I know someone proposed separating a country's actual power ranking from their flavor tier and I think that'd be a good start.

 

[Streamlet]

The least I hope for is that "prince"/"principality" replaces "count" and "duke" as the default title. Seeing the most foreign name possible, with perfect word order and diacritics, preceded by "count" is absurd lol

 

[Birchinjaro]

They should divide country ranks into formal rank (flavor names and nomenclature such as Emperor, King, Tsar, Negus, Sultuan etc.) and game rank which is purely gameplay driven and dependant on your country's strength and size

 

[Sindai]

Rank is fine as a game system. It would be nice to have regional names like Crusader Kings does, as long as the color/symbol make it obvious what rank each name corresponds to.

 

[Flower_Marlin]

The distinction between a County and a Duchy is so lost in the context of Asian or African nations that there are basically no Duchies in all of Asia - I can think of only one, Brunei. So your point is a pressing issue to begin with, as such a ranking system is hard to implement in this part of the world. Moreoever, the rank system in Asia seems to be a tool to set the precedence for "lucky" nation starts. Khmer starts as an Empire, allowing it to flourish for the first century in the game quite easily in the face of a Chinese threat AND a growing Tai state. On the other end, Delhi starts as a Kingdom, to set the stage of the fall of Delhi (we literally get an event to demote it to the Duchy rank when the disaster triggers). This feels.... disparate. Majapahit - a Kingdom, but Sunda - a County. Why? The Rajas of Sunda held equal prestige, so much so the Majapahit did not attack them for the longest time - for reasons related to mutual respect and superstitious beliefs surrounding the Parahyangan highlands being sacred or whatever - all while conquering all of the Malay Archipelago (until that one fuck up by Gajah Mada). There are many more examples similar to this which returns to the point that the ranking system needs revision in the non-European context.

 

[Ispil]

The system makes no sense. Frankly it barely even makes sense in Europe, too.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

the way ranks work currently in eu5 dont match europe as well, if im not wrong the rank is based on pops and to be a kingdom you need 1M, this is way too much for historical kingdoms with less populations, for some the devs gave an exception(Norway, Navarra), but to others they haven't(Cilicia,Alodia), so i suggest differentiating between title ranks and mechanic related ranks

 

[Fawr]

English-language historiographical conventions aren't a good basis for the kinds of bonuses that these ranks are getting (power projection, diplomatic capacity, diplomats, diplomatic range, ability to enter into alliances, etc, etc). It makes them feel like magic bonuses.

Country Ranks
There are four ranks that countries can have in Project Caesar. It is more similar to EU4 than Imperator in that changing country ranks is something you actively do on your own. Besides having various rules on what a country can do, they also give some benefits, and rather importantly to the player experience, they impact what the countries are called.

The code supports multiple types of ranks at the same level, so modders could in theory add dozens of variants of a duchy rank if they so desire.

The default rank is the County Rank, which all countries default to, unless set up to be something else.

The first rank above that is the Duchy Rank, where you can now guarantee other countries, and a little bit higher diplomatic capacity and power projection. Countries that start on this level include the Duchy of Brittany or the Duchy of Lithuania. To be able to upgrade from a county to a duchy, you can not be in any International Organizations that disallow rank changes, but you also need at least 100,000 pops of your primary culture.

The next rank above that is the Kingdom Rank, which requires 1 million pops of your primary culture and gives a larger diplomatic range and other abilities. This includes countries like the Kingdom of Sweden and the Sultanate of Delhi

The final rank, the Empire Rank, which is the hardest to promote to, allows for a wider variety of diplomatic actions, and other abilities. At the start of the game there is only one Empire in Europe though, the Eastern Roman one. A country must become a Great Power before they are able to attain this rank, and there are special restrictions on Catholic countries from pretending to be emperors without the Pope’s permission.

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ps. is this a record for the most replies agreeing to a suggestion (or asking to go further)?

 

[Goran42069]

A system like vic3s power ranking system would make much more sense but have it tied to the actual strenght of the country instead of prestige, titles like count/duke/king/emperor could be tied to it but only in cultures where it makes sense and they should be mostly flavour or prestige related. Like asian countries could still get to be called empires but not dukes for example.

 

[SAmaster]

I figure it's more a conversation about how more 'duchies' could be added about throughout the game. Probably a good deal of formables would count for this.

 

[Nostalgium]

I honestly don't see what was wrong with Imperator's "City State" > "Local Power" > "Regional Power" > "Major Power" > "Great Power" progression*. That way, you can keep flavourful and unique stylings (such as the Timur "just" being an Emir, or all the various Tsardoms, small Kingdoms and large Duchies) without it having weird gameplay effects, like small kingdoms and Empires being locked to the start date. Want to be a kingdom with 700k pop? Tough, you weren't that rank in 1337, so you don't get to play.

*Well, except that it was based on province count and not pops, which could have fascinating results if playing in population-sparse areas.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

With regards to my region of interest, Georgian titles more or less fit the hierarchy quite well (it also being a system of lords and the monarch united under a state religion). However, seeing stuff like this outside the western cultural sphere is very jarring:

Disregarding flavour itself, from a gameplay point of view, I strongly support bringing back Imperator's system of City State -> Local Power -> Regional Power -> Major Power, as @Nostalgium said.

Feudal hierarchy and state capacity had long begun to diverge in the 14th century. After 1648, the title of the head of state didn't matter much in Europe, outside of vestigial HRE dignities or some other irrelevant archaisms.

Political power and country rank should be almost completely divorced from each other in EU5.

 

[High Speed Flying Gladius]

Perhaps it would be best to split "country rank" from "country title"?

The first, as others mentioned, could mirror Imperator's system ("City State" > "Local Power" > "Regional Power" > "Major Power" > "Great Power") and be used as a raw reflection of a country's size and population, unlocking new actions and such.

The other could instead be used to represent all the feudal-ish title shenanigans going on in europe and other parts of the world.

WIth this division, we can have the globe-spanning French and British empires be Great Powers, but still being and styling themselves kingdoms, while Byz can be an Empire by prestige and historical title, with being obviously a regional power (if that). Same with HRE emperorship.

The first is blatant and objective, the second can be tied to recognition, fought over and has to be acknowledged by other polities.

For a RotW example, countries near China might have similar restrictions to those in Europe regarding the imperial title, at least in the early ages.
If Vietnam conquered all of SEA, they would become a Major, maybe even Great Power, but they coudn't claim the imperial title if China is whole and the local international system revoles around them as granters of legitimacy.

 

[LAF1994]

Even if there were a 'country rank' system separate from 'country title', the other problem is that the rank system generally is that for most of EUV's timeframe the mechanic is only really valid in a local context, not a global one.

 

[Bozkurt]

I honestly don't see what was wrong with Imperator's "City State" > "Local Power" > "Regional Power" > "Major Power" > "Great Power" progression*. That way, you can keep flavourful and unique stylings (such as the Timur "just" being an Emir, or all the various Tsardoms, small Kingdoms and large Duchies) without it having weird gameplay effects, like small kingdoms and Empires being locked to the start date. Want to be a kingdom with 700k pop? Tough, you weren't that rank in 1337, so you don't get to play.

*Well, except that it was based on province count and not pops, which could have fascinating results if playing in population-sparse areas.

Just a correction about TImur, he called himself an emir because he didn't have legitimacy to call himself khan or caliph so he had a puppet khan and he married descendant of Genghis Khan so that his kids will have legitimcay to be true khan so while Timur wasn't an emperor his country was an empire.

 

[Nostalgium]

Just a correction about TImur, he called himself an emir because he didn't have legitimacy to call himself khan or caliph so he had a puppet khan and he married descendant of Genghis Khan so that his kids will have legitimcay to be true khan so while Timur wasn't an emperor his country was an empire.

Yep - but I'm pretty sure the Timurid Empire literally can't become an Empire in EU5 using normal mechanics because there simply aren't enough pops of primary culture in the whole world to make it happen. I think you'd even struggle with Kingdom. And if it could, Timur would be styled as Emperor. So we get the worst of both worlds.

I'm sure there is a bypass for the Timurids so they can get Empire rank (I don't remember from the Tinto Talk), but I feel like the more bypasses, exceptions and special mechanics they put in for this system, the more clear it becomes that it's flawed at its core.

 

[Bozkurt]

Yep - but I'm pretty sure the Timurid Empire literally can't become an Empire in EU5 using normal mechanics because there simply aren't enough pops of primary culture in the whole world to make it happen. I think you'd even struggle with Kingdom. And if it could, Timur would be styled as Emperor. So we get the worst of both worlds.

I'm sure there is a bypass for the Timurids so they can get Empire rank (I don't remember from the Tinto Talk), but I feel like the more bypasses, exceptions and special mechanics they put in for this system, the more clear it becomes that it's flawed at its core.

I think for making TImurids get empire rank you would need to culture shift to Persian which is similiar to what happened in real life too. Maybe a solution can be found by counting something like 20% of accepted cultures for population limit so that foreign conquerers like happened in india,persia or china can make it an empire while keeping dynastic culture.

 

[FleetingRain]

What even is a Duchy?

 

[slupie]

One major problem I have with the current system is that the map mode is kinda useless. If I want to know the relative power of all the countries in a region, I don't care what their title is - just look at Scandinavia in 1337, the kingdoms there are far weaker than many of their continental counterparts, but need to be elevated so their title is historical.

Let title be a primarily cultural value, which can provide minor prestige bonuses or something, but leave the majority of mechanical bonuses to objective country ranks.

This lets you put in unique modifiers like Catholic countries requiring Papal acknowledgement to become kingdoms, having Orthodox countries use principality or grand principality instead of kingdom, require that tsardoms claim descent from Rome, make khanates be ruled by a descendant of Ghengis Khan, etc.