Should Officials and Envoys be the same thing?

[ParanoiaMod]

Inspired by a general discussion topic.

Officials have very little to do but sit on their ass on a Planet or council/federation meeting.
Envoys basically have no identity.

Why not just use Officials to do Envoy stuff as well, and drop Envoys as a separate concept.

So Officials could, now that they do Envoy stuff as well:
Oversee First Contacts (with bonuses according to their Level).
Oversee Spy rings and missions.
Oversee relations (for both directions) with other Civilizations / pre-FTLs.

All of these would give Officials a tad more to do, and the Missions / Contacts finished can be worth a decent amount of XP.
Plus this'd make the Official Ranks a bit more interesting, and make losing an Official to an Assassination or diplomatic faux pas very painful if the Official was of high Rank.


Tldr: Why have Envoys? Not like Officials are doing anything interesting.

 

[HFY]

Envoys are already in a pretty good place.

Envoy assignments are already a working source of meaningful choices.


It might be neat to be able to assign spare Officials to Envoy jobs but that would need some balance work.

 

[ParanoiaMod]

but that would need some balance work.

Oh, sure, that's a given. The least of which would not be just designing Officials Traits relating to First Contacts, Leading Spy Missions, etc.

 

[Letharion]

There are some elaborated and well thought out propositions of how to combine envoys and officials or leaders at all (make envoys a job like governors each leader can fill out but with different skills).

 

[Metallichydra]

There are some elaborated and well thought out propositions of how to combine envoys and officials or leaders at all (make envoys a job like governors each leader can fill out but with different skills).

Could be a nice touch if first contact with materialistic empires was smoother if conducted by a scientist, and possibly also being influenced by the ethic of the leader. Xenophobic leaders might ensure you don't leak much information during your first contact, but they sure ain't going to make a good first impression on your new friends enemies.

 

[GOLANX]

there is a whole specialization for Officials that never gets used because its diplomacy focused for a council seat, and that's a waste of a council seat and a specialization. I'm in favor of finally getting rid of envoys, it's also just bloat at this point.

 

[Rodmar18]

This balance should take into consideration those who play without envoys/leaders-focused on DLCs.

I'm in favor of finally getting rid of envoys, it's also just bloat at this point.

Except if envoys are real specific, per-mission (missi dominici/nuncio/extraordinary ambassador) jobs for leaders, and not life appointments. Example : directing special ops/studying an alien species (as currently with the DLC?), securing a peace treaty after a protracted war, or a vassalization contract, monitoring a colonization process...

For the rest, better have envoys as virtual as ambassadors currently are: automated and disembodied functions.

 

[PraseodymiumSpike]

Envoys are already in a pretty good place.

Envoy assignments are already a working source of meaningful choices.


It might be neat to be able to assign spare Officials to Envoy jobs but that would need some balance work.

They may be in a good place objectively, but compared to other types of individual characters in the game, they are unpolished. Also, Officials already act as diplomats in parts of the game, so why not merge those roles?

 

[HFY]

They may be in a good place objectively, but compared to other types of individual characters in the game, they are unpolished. Also, Officials already act as diplomats in parts of the game, so why not merge those roles?

Nah, they're polished better than most of the game mechanics.

Envoys are a rare example of a well-balanced game mechanic which has meaningful choices both early and late-game.


Destroying one of the few working mechanics just to chase an illusion of consistency across named NPCs would be a mistake.

 

[ParanoiaMod]

Destroying one of the few working mechanics just to chase an illusion of consistency across named NPCs would be a mistake.

I do not argue with the rest of the statement, but I do object to word "just" in there. :b
The central argument of the topic, as far as I am concerned, is that:
1: Officials have nothing to do but sit on their asses, be it as Planet Governors, or at Community and/or Federation meetings. Which makes them feel underutilized. And:
2: Enjoys have next to no character. "Oh, no, I would need to fire one of my faceless identical Envoys! Such a tragedy!"

Making Officials into Envoys would, as far as I am concerned, fix both of those issues: Officials would have more to do (which would especially help with their XP gain), and "Envoys" (now Officials) would have individual character. If some Event would assassinate or force me to resign my Level 7+ Official or suffer diplomatic consequences, I would feel like that actually meant something other than just having my list of identical Envoys be one short for a while. If not for anything else, then because now I need to start training a new one to replace them.
And, indeed, it would allow Envoy stuff have something to do with Experience and Levels. A Spy Ring led by a Level 10 Official may be a TAD more effective than one led by a Level 1 Official.


...Plus, semantically, what ELSE are envoys but officials of my Empire? At least Scientists and Military careers can make some sort of a distinction of why they are not just a part of the general system of bureaucrazy, but separate from it. Whereas Officials and Envoys have a LOT of overlap.

 

[HFY]

I do not argue with the rest of the statement, but I do object to word "just" in there. :b
The central argument of the topic, as far as I am concerned, is that:
1: Officials have nothing to do but sit on their asses, be it as Planet Governors, or at Community and/or Federation meetings. Which makes them feel underutilized. And:
2: Enjoys have next to no character. "Oh, no, I would need to fire one of my faceless identical Envoys! Such a tragedy!"

Envoys also sit on their hands. Envoys make ZERO decisions. You'd be replacing one non-interactive role with another equally non-interactive role. You'd break the functioning mechanic for no benefit.


Here's a few better ideas:

- Colony events check for a Governor, with choices for specific leader types. Officials get many of the best options. Participating gives XP.

- Federation events check for a Delegate. Different traits give different choices. Participating gives XP.

- GC events, etc., XP.

- Colony Situations allow you to assign an emergency Governor. There are multiple choices throughout each Situation, some of which may be risky. This would be things like winning over a newly conquered capital, dealing with natives on a pre-FTL world you invaded, dealing with unhappy citizens, slave uprisings, and so on.

...Plus, semantically, what ELSE are envoys but officials of my Empire?

The Envoy that I have deciphering strange alien transmissions seems like either a Linguist or a Signal Intelligence officer.

What's an Official supposed to do, file paperwork at them?

 

[ParanoiaMod]

Envoys also sit on their hands. Envoys make ZERO decisions.

Hardly.
There is the First Contact Events where one gets to choose what to do. Maybe trying to capture live specimen, or to break into data-banks, or whatever gets easier with an Official that is specialized into espionage.
Then there are all the Spy Ring Mission Events where there are choices on how to proceed. Official with correct specialization and/or Level can easily affect chance to succeed, maybe even add new options.


The point is that there are plenty of "choices" Envoys do based on Events where Envoy is present. They just do not matter in them as is because they are all the same and interchangeable.

I do agree on that there should be Governor Events, though.

 

[HFY]

There is the First Contact Events where one gets to choose what to do. Maybe trying to capture live specimen, or to break into data-banks, or whatever gets easier with an Official that is specialized into espionage.

I wouldn't mind if you got to risk an Official to deal with some of the risky First Contact chains (e.g. "Aliens sent a shuttle ...").

That could work alongside the Envoy doing its thing.

 

[GOLANX]

Hardly.
There is the First Contact Events where one gets to choose what to do. Maybe trying to capture live specimen, or to break into data-banks, or whatever gets easier with an Official that is specialized into espionage.
Then there are all the Spy Ring Mission Events where there are choices on how to proceed. Official with correct specialization and/or Level can easily affect chance to succeed, maybe even add new options.


The point is that there are plenty of "choices" Envoys do based on Events where Envoy is present. They just do not matter in them as is because they are all the same and interchangeable.

I do agree on that there should be Governor Events, though.

First contact rolls could be based on Official level similar to how archeology scientist get better rolls for their level/archeology skill.

Envoys also sit on their hands. Envoys make ZERO decisions. You'd be replacing one non-interactive role with another equally non-interactive role. You'd break the functioning mechanic for no benefit.

Governors are sitting on their hands not doing anything other than provide a passive stat buff. envoys could have traits that improve their diplomatic or espionage abilities, they are halfway there already with the Ambassador traits. a few buffs and modifications and they would be perfect envoy traits

Here's a few better ideas:

- Colony events check for a Governor, with choices for specific leader types. Officials get many of the best options. Participating gives XP.

- Federation events check for a Delegate. Different traits give different choices. Participating gives XP.

- GC events, etc., XP.

- Colony Situations allow you to assign an emergency Governor. There are multiple choices throughout each Situation, some of which may be risky. This would be things like winning over a newly conquered capital, dealing with natives on a pre-FTL world you invaded, dealing with unhappy citizens, slave uprisings, and so on.

more events with officials should have been done to begin with. devs could work on a Events DLC that would give several to leaders.

The Envoy that I have deciphering strange alien transmissions seems like either a Linguist or a Signal Intelligence officer.

What's an Official supposed to do, file paperwork at them?

could have a scientist doing first contact, but even officials would be the ones delegating tasks for the scientist to do to translate, plus you probably want the official to be the face of your effort, he is going to write the rules for whatever you decide, he can control the flow of information, create recordings for them to decipher, or engage the Hackers to actually hack their communications.

This balance should take into consideration those who play without envoys/leaders-focused on DLCs.

devs threw balance out the window already when it comes to DLCs, compared to megastructures, Titans, Crisis Paths, Synthetics and Biologicals DLCs buff those ascensions out of whack and leave the base features in the dust. Officials replacing envoys without paragons would mean you wouldn't have access to the veteran class as the main thing, Official's levels would still provide benefits to envoy duties though and any base character traits that apply to envoys would apply to those who don't own the DLC.

 

[Letharion]

Imho officials shouldn't be the only ones who could take over envoy tasks, but perhaps in most cases the best suitables. I envision (most, but debatable) envoy tasks as feasible for all leader classes, especially first contact and espionage missions, which are also those with the most interactivity.

Especially later in the game, when there is little left to survey, the use of scientists in certain espionage activities would be a good use, since the task "assist research" no longer exists and not as many science governors are needed.

On the other side, with specialized federation types like the Research Cooperative or the Martial Alliance, perhaps also the Hegemony, you should also be able to assign the appropriate leader class, scientist or commander, as an alternative to an official.

 

[Lykayla]

I think the envoy system should stay how it is.

If anything maybe give the option to use an official in place of an envoy if you choose to, so you can either get a slightly better envoy that's one of your actual leaders,
or just use a regular envoy.

Best of both worlds, more options for diplomacy due to having more envoy-esc positions available if you choose to, but you're not forced to use officials for this purpose if you don't want to.

 

[GOLANX]

I think the envoy system should stay how it is.

If anything maybe give the option to use an official in place of an envoy if you choose to, so you can either get a slightly better envoy that's one of your actual leaders,
or just use a regular envoy.

Best of both worlds, more options for diplomacy due to having more envoy-esc positions available if you choose to, but you're not forced to use officials for this purpose if you don't want to.

That's just like getting free officials for existing, and bonus officials for being Xenophile.