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Chlodio

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Aug 26, 2011
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Here is a hypothetical scenario:
  • King Adam has only one daughter, Princess Eva.
  • Eva marries Lord Thomas, and gives birth to a son, Paul.
  • Thomas dies shortly after the birth of his son.
  • Eve remarries Lord Andrew, and gives birth to Andrew's son, Alexander.
  • King Adam dies and Eve succeeds him under primogeniture.
  • With the accession of his wife, Andrew becomes king jure uxoris.
  • Eve dies shortly afterwards, naturally, Andrew loses his statue as the king jure uxoris.
The question is which son should succeed Eve? Paul or Alexander?

This is tricky because it depends on how Andrew is viewed. If Andrew is just considered a consort equal to that of queen-consort, the succession would favour Paul.
However, if we consider Andrew a co-ruler, I reckon primogeniture would see the ruling couple as a single entity and prioritize any offspring from the union before moving to Eve's sole children.

CK2 has no jure uxoris, so it would go to Paul, but should it?
 
I'm not sure how adoption was seen in the Middle Ages in Western Europe, but it was perfectly acceptable in Byzantium at the very least. Basil I took the throne because Michael III had adopted him as his son and made him co-emperor, despite Basil being significantly older than him.
 
Unless I'm misunderstanding your question, in Primo, when Eva dies, Paul would inherit, since he is her elsest son. If he dies without legitimate issue, then Alexander would inherit...
 
@vandevere
I'm asking this because it's an odd situation. If Paul was king by jure uxoris, he could only retain that position as long as his wife was alive, however, as long as he did, he would be equal to regular kings, which would hint that any child that is both his and Eve's would inherit before others.
 
Eva is King Adam's Daughter. Paul and Alexander are her sons, born to two different husbands The royal blood passes through Eva. Not her husbands. Paul, being the older of her two sons, will inherit when Eva dies. Only if Paul has no children will Alexander inherit.
 
Eva is King Adam's Daughter. Paul and Alexander are her sons, born to two different husbands The royal blood passes through Eva. Not her husbands. Paul, being the older of her two sons, will inherit when Eva dies. Only if Paul has no children will Alexander inherit.
You don't understand how important jure uxoris is. Some kings by jure uxoris continued to rule property of their spouse even after jure uxoris had technically expired. I reckon Andrew's lack of blood is irrelevant if the couple is considered a single entity that becomes obsolete once one of them dies.
 
It depends on who has the bigger armies. For most of CK's period, the precise legal arguments were largely irrelevant. I hope that CK3 will undertake to make things a bit more uncertain than "the law says Paul inherits so Paul inherits."
 
You don't understand how important jure uxoris is. Some kings by jure uxoris continued to rule property of their spouse even after jure uxoris had technically expired. I reckon Andrew's lack of blood is irrelevant if the couple is considered a single entity that becomes obsolete once one of them dies.
That would depend upon the popularity, and personal qualities of the husband. If he's popular with the vassals, he might succeed. If not, though, things could get bad for him.

Also, regardless of the second husbands popularity, there would also be loyalists, and legalists, who would take a dim view of that.

Could end up with a civil war...
 
You don't understand how important jure uxoris is. Some kings by jure uxoris continued to rule property of their spouse even after jure uxoris had technically expired. I reckon Andrew's lack of blood is irrelevant if the couple is considered a single entity that becomes obsolete once one of them dies.
That sometimes works for lower titles (although it sometimes doesn't as well; it really depends on how well Andrew gets along with the liege who would make the decision, and sometimes the new title is technically a recreation of the old, rather than a continuation).

For kingdoms, it very much depends on the succession law, the relative power/influence of the two princes, and their tolerance for civil wars. In some realms, it would be perfectly acceptable for Eva to designate one of her sons as heir and disinherit the other one (although honestly, this generally went the other way, with a man with two wives favoring the kids of his second wife). In others, that would be an absolute no-no. And sometimes a compromise would be worked out.

A good example of this sort of thing (albeit for a noble, not a royal) would be the marriages of Joan of Acre, daughter of Edward I of England. She married the Earl of Gloucester (who, critically, resigned his title and was regranted it by Edward I upon the marriage, under the conditions that said title would follow Joan). She had kids with him, he died, and then she secretly remarried. Her second husband (once the marriage was revealed) was granted the title of Earl of Gloucester for his lifetime (remember the complications of the Gloucester resignation/regrant), after which it passed on to Joan's son by her first marriage.

For a different complication, consider the succession of Richard Beauchamp, 13th Earl of Warwick (which would play a major role in the leadup to the Wars of the Roses). He married twice; by his first marriage, he had 3 daughters, who married various nobles (notably including Edmund Beaufort, later a prominent Lancastrian), while his second marriage yielded a son and a daughter (and the daughter married Richard Neville, later famous as "Warwick the Kingmaker" in the Wars of the Roses). When he died, his son inherited as the 14th Earl, but once said son (followed shortly by his only child, briefly the 15th Countess of Warwick), Neville was able to claim the title on behalf of his wife, even though she was the youngest sister, because she was a full-sister to the 14th Earl, whereas the others were only half-sisters, even though they were all equally the children of Richard Beauchamp. Needless to say, this was a major legal dispute, and would lead to Richard Neville allying with the Yorkists against the Beaufort and his Lancastrian allies.

So, the answer to your question again is "it depends." Usually it would be the eldest son, but if the younger son had enough political support, he might make a play for things as well. As an added complication, it's quite possible that there might be a significant age difference between the sons. Again, I'm not familiar with many examples involving Queens Regnant, but kings remarrying could cause real or perceived complications for the sons of the previous marriage; Ethelred the Unready's perceived favoritism to the sons of his second wife eventually caused Edmund Ironside (son of his first wife) to launch a rebellion against his father. Conversely, when Edward the Elder died, he had children by three different wives; he seems to have divided the kingdom between his son by his first wife (Athelstan, playable in the Iron Century bookmark in CK2) and the eldest of his sons by his second wife (Elfweard, who died shortly afterwards, allowing Athelstan to reunify the kingdom), but it's not clear if that was his intention or the result of the two princes each reacting to their father's death with different sets of backers. Once Athelstan died childless, the crown passed to the sons of Edward's third wife (from whence descended future Anglo-Saxon kings of England).
 
I find this is really a "born in the purple" matter. If Thomas had died after king Adam he would've been king by iure uxoris too, with just as many rights as Andrew. If Andrew's son has priority that is because he actually did become king, so there is something special in becoming king.
 
You could argue for Andrew, but not Alexander. It would be an interesting type of plot, having the king-consort as take over as heir.

I guess you could also argue in general for the existence of plots to remove individuals from inheritance - we've so far done this simply by plotting to have them killed, but I'm pretty sure there were similar plots in history that resulted in inheritance bypassing someone either completely, or partially (leading to civil war?)
 
For most of CK's period, the precise legal arguments were largely irrelevant
Certainly not, at least in feudal Europe.
The laws (and the arguments) change a lot, but they were still very important.
Real history isn't GoT, you don't have a witty dwarf saying "the best legal argument is a big army".You have people who need a solid legal basis for their actions because otherwise their realm become unmanageable and everyone starts plotting against them. Vassals weren't the only thing that mattered. You need the Church and the Law with you as well. Which doesn't mean that you couldn't infrige the law. But you had to play it smart, and get support in other ways. An army wasn't enough.

Law (including traditional law) is an extremely underrated in discussions on the web about the medieval era, which is very surprising given how important it was and how important it is for modern historians.


Now the thing is that it would require a lot of effort to properly model that in game, and a more simple solution is preferable.
In the example given by OP, the heir should be Paul in CK3, but the character-focus should also play its role. If Andrew is ambitious he would probably try to make Paul a monk, so his own heir inherits. If he's brutal or cunning, he (or Alexander himself) could have him assassinated. But he could also be honest or naive, and accept the natural right of Paul.
It's kinda how it worked in CK2 - people trying to assassinate rulers to inherit their titles - and I think it's more interesting than having to play with laws. It's like in tabletop games: use very simple basic rules that allow many interactions and complex development, and you get an game that is easy to play, but fun.
If you use rules with many exceptions and dynamic changes, you get a game that is hard to play, and can still be fun... if you didn't stop playing because of the way it works.
 
I would say that according to the hallowed Saxon tradition the one to win the civil war will have the throne.

But otherwise I feel that I am kind of with Ezumiyr. I think that the reason as to why the legal wrangling don't take a larger presence in popular culture is due to our own views on history. Asoiaf is made for modern people and they would get bored with legal wrangling and such and might even refuse to accept that the Middle Ages in Europe were so, relatively, cultured as to have something more important than naked force be the stronger reason for someone to rule.

I digress: Not to mention that from a dramatic and storytelling perspective its probably better with a decisive resolution to a part of the story as opposed to endless arguments, changes in public opinion and so on. For those who have also read some more material about Westeros you'll also note that most conflicts are settled by decisive field engagements in pitched battles. Endless numbers of sieges, counter-sieges, ambushes and raids and skirmishes that drags on for years and years and more armies are brought down by sickness than swords are probably a realistic way to depict the wars in Westeros. But the stories would probably get bogged down and the war lose its "charm" without decisive moments to look forward too and read about.
 
I would like it if succession was turned from an instant event into a process and in addition to having a holder and not existing a title could also be 'disputed'.

Stage 1: The ruler dies and claims are handed out to his children and possibly even the ruler's spouse.

Stage 2: Everyone with a claim is given a decision whether to press the claim or not. The heir's claim is automatically pressed. If nobody else is pressing their claim the process ends and the heir inherits. Otherwise the title becomes disputed.

Stage 3: If there are multiple claimants all vassals make a decision whether to support one of the claimants or remain neutral. Claim strength, opinion of the claimants, and the vassal's traits would all play into the decision.

Stage 4: The claimants are given a list of all the claimants, who all is supporting them, the total army size of each faction, and which vassals remained neutral (along with their total army size). The claimants are given a final chance to back down or go ahead and press their claim for real.

Stage 5: If at this point there is only one claimant left that one inherits, otherwise a civil war erupts. Each claimant gets a temporary title of the disputed title's tier and all supporters become vassals. Neutral vassals of the old ruler are given temporary independence until the war ends, but can at any time choose to support any of the claimants and become a vassal. Likewise claimants should be able to offer bribes, promise titles, or use hooks to try to get a neutral vassal to join their side.

Stage 6: Whoever wins the war gains the title. If the war ends with a white peace though the title is destroyed and the claimant's temporary titles are transformed into permanent ones.

There is probably still room for improvement, but that would more or less be how I imagine the system to work.
 
I would like it if succession was turned from an instant event into a process and in addition to having a holder and not existing a title could also be 'disputed'.

Stage 1: The ruler dies and claims are handed out to his children and possibly even the ruler's spouse.

Stage 2: Everyone with a claim is given a decision whether to press the claim or not. The heir's claim is automatically pressed. If nobody else is pressing their claim the process ends and the heir inherits. Otherwise the title becomes disputed.

Stage 3: If there are multiple claimants all vassals make a decision whether to support one of the claimants or remain neutral. Claim strength, opinion of the claimants, and the vassal's traits would all play into the decision.

Stage 4: The claimants are given a list of all the claimants, who all is supporting them, the total army size of each faction, and which vassals remained neutral (along with their total army size). The claimants are given a final chance to back down or go ahead and press their claim for real.

Stage 5: If at this point there is only one claimant left that one inherits, otherwise a civil war erupts. Each claimant gets a temporary title of the disputed title's tier and all supporters become vassals. Neutral vassals of the old ruler are given temporary independence until the war ends, but can at any time choose to support any of the claimants and become a vassal. Likewise claimants should be able to offer bribes, promise titles, or use hooks to try to get a neutral vassal to join their side.

Stage 6: Whoever wins the war gains the title. If the war ends with a white peace though the title is destroyed and the claimant's temporary titles are transformed into permanent ones.

There is probably still room for improvement, but that would more or less be how I imagine the system to work.
There's only one possible problem to this. Going by the way CK2 goes-where the stated "possibility" of bad things happening is really a 100% certainty-I could very easily see CK3 descending into a morass of Succession and Civil Wars literally every time a Ruler dies regardless of Succession Law.

Please, let's not do that. Most Successions were peaceful. It was normally when the heir was either a minor, or clearly unacceptable in other ways, that Succession wars got started
 
I'm not sure how adoption was seen in the Middle Ages in Western Europe, but it was perfectly acceptable in Byzantium at the very least. Basil I took the throne because Michael III had adopted him as his son and made him co-emperor, despite Basil being significantly older than him.

Adoption didn't matter, legally. Sure, it meant that Basil would've inherited Michael's personal property, but the power of the empire was in control of the central treasury not some personal land holdings.

However, the emperorship was an office to be granted, not inherited. The real power move was naming Basil junior emperor. That meant the office wouldn't be vacant at any time, so in theory anyone trying to claim the purple needed to commit treason to do it. Which didn't always work, but did this (and most of) the time.

One really shouldn't compare Roman imperial succession to other European kingships. It was, fundementally, a different animal by design. Getting to be emperor was 1 part support from the people of Constantinople, 1 part support of the church, 2 parts support of the bureaucracy, and 3 parts support of the army. Ideally, you'd have all four constituencies in your pocket, but the army and an angry mob in the streets would suffice.

Primogeniture and gavelkind are simple by comparison.
 
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Adoption didn't matter, legally. Sure, it meant that Basil would've inherited Michael's personal property, but the power of the empire was in control of the central treasury not some personal land holdings.

However, the emperorship was an office to be granted, not inherited. The real power move was naming Basil junior emperor. That meant the office wouldn't be vacant at any time, so in theory anyone trying to claim the purple needed to commit treason to do it. Which didn't always work, but did this (and most of) the time.

One really shouldn't compare Roman imperial succession to other European kingships. It was, fundementally, a different animal by design. Getting to be emperor was 1 part support from the people of Constantinople, 1 part support of the church, 2 parts support of the bureaucracy, and 3 parts support of the army. Ideally, you'd have all four constituencies in your pocket, but the army and an angry mob in the streets would suffice.

Primogeniture and gavelkind are simple by comparison.

According to Primo, Paul would inherit everything, and Alexander would be his heir until Paul produced an heir.

In Gavelkind, Paul would inherit the Main title, and Alexander would inherit secondary titles. And Alexander would still be Paul's heir until Paul produced an heir of his own...