Sicily

[Dell19]

A thread for general discussions about Sicily.

I've been playing a game as them and cheating a little to speed up colonisation so I'll probably start a new game at some point.

The early game:
- Sicily get a military leader and start with a large army and navy.
- The Papal States are allied to Tuscany who get swallowed up by Hansa.
The first factor made me declare war immediately on the Pope and it worked reasonably well and Siena is a decent province to own. It didn't really feel like owning Siena had much impact on the game though.

Tlemcen:
- The piracy events that give you CBs hint that you should go to war with Tlemcen however it was only after I read the event file that I realised that Sicily get some good events to turn Tunis and Tripoli into home lands. I think there should be an event that indicates this to the player with two options: the first is just an acknowledgement with a small boost to troops whilst the other would lose infrastructure investment but gain cores on the two provinces.
- I eventually conquered a couple more provinces from Tlemcen and edited the saved game file so that they were also Sicilian and moved most of the population to the remaining Tlemcen territories.

Colonisation
- I like colonising and Sicily can easily reach somewhere like Brazil first.

Events:
- There is an event to reform the navy or the army that I didn't like. Both options require a payment of 800 ducats whilst I had about 50 ducats at the time as I was investing in colonies. I felt this event was pretty harsh as there is a good chance that it will bankrupt Sicily for a human player whilst Brittany get their harbour for a far more reasonable price.

- The potential inheritance of Cyprus. I think if Sicily get Cyprus but then do not take any mainland holy land province then they should be forced to make the province independant or give it to someone else.

 

[unmerged(90762)]

I agree strongly on the point of the reform event.

North Africa: I felt these events were incredibly confusing. I really wasn't sure when I finished incorporating it, and they were never really that close to my empire in comparison with the rest of them, not a homeland at all (and I checked to make certain it was the most incorporating path).

 

[Dell19]

I'll try writing some events tomorrow:

- an event to either give a small amout of troops or potentially a CB on Tunis to explain that it would be beneficial to capture Tunis and Tripoli.

- Add a cheaper option to the naval reform event.

- Potentially some banking events that boost cash given that Sicily may well not have a trade centre.

- A potential personal crusade set of events to capture the rest of Tlemcen. (Not sure about this and would probably only be triggered if Tunis is owned)

 

[panther-anthro]

glad to see some of you working towards helping out, I'll test anything you guys bring forward.

 

[MattyG]

The early game:
- Sicily get a military leader and start with a large army and navy.
- The Papal States are allied to Tuscany who get swallowed up by Hansa.
The first factor made me declare war immediately on the Pope and it worked reasonably well and Siena is a decent province to own. It didn't really feel like owning Siena had much impact on the game though.

No, I suppose not. Except that it is a valuable province. Few provinces have a specific impact on the game.

T

lemcen:
- The piracy events that give you CBs hint that you should go to war with Tlemcen however it was only after I read the event file that I realised that Sicily get some good events to turn Tunis and Tripoli into home lands. I think there should be an event that indicates this to the player with two options: the first is just an acknowledgement with a small boost to troops whilst the other would lose infrastructure investment but gain cores on the two provinces.

This is a good idea, but it is tricky. We don't want to 'lead the player' too much and it seems strange to be suggesting what will happen in the future if you do X. We have to hope that, if the events are well-designed, that the outcomes of actions are logical and to some degree therefore predictable. But this is a different case and I agree that we need to be a bit clearer. I think it comes down to having an initial event suggest that Sicily has a 'future' by investing in North Africa. Still, it needs to be a long-term thing. Supplanting a local people and forcing religious and cultural change takes centuries.

The basic problem is also that there is no compelling reason to keep North Africa, as it is quite poor. This is a problem solved in 1.05, as I have upped the tax and MP values for Tripoli and Tunisia.

Events:
- There is an event to reform the navy or the army that I didn't like. Both options require a payment of 800 ducats whilst I had about 50 ducats at the time as I was investing in colonies. I felt this event was pretty harsh as there is a good chance that it will bankrupt Sicily for a human player whilst Brittany get their harbour for a far more reasonable price.

Hmmm. See, we have a philosophy here of No Free Lunch. Players can already outplay the ai, so giving them cheap manufactories and other buildings through events is a little crazy. The Shipyard event gives you the chance to construct a building that is ahead of time and costs you as much as it would if you were normally able to build it. Yes, it is expensive, but there are advantages and, like anything, it is a juicy decision you have to make based on the conditions you are experiencing. However, I do think 800 is a touch steep. I will lower it to 600.

- The potential inheritance of Cyprus. I think if Sicily get Cyprus but then do not take any mainland holy land province then they should be forced to make the province independant or give it to someone else.

Why?

 

[unmerged(90762)]

I would like to state my position that Sicily is under no obligation to continue Jersualem's crusade, even if they take over Cyprus. Certainly, the idea was for them to take up the call, but Cyprus is in no position to demand that Sicily carry it through, as they only join with Sicily as an act of desperation.

 

[Dell19]

Okay it just seemed an odd province to keep if Sicily haven't taken any other provinces in the east although they do have a choice over whether to take the province.

The Shipyard event gives you the chance to construct a building that is ahead of time and costs you as much as it would if you were normally able to build it. Yes, it is expensive, but there are advantages and, like anything, it is a juicy decision you have to make based on the conditions you are experiencing. However, I do think 800 is a touch steep. I will lower it to 600.

My issue was more that there was no option C. I had to spend 800 ducats whichever option I took which would have bankrupted me. 600 is a sensible amount but it would be nice to still have an option C where you can choose to spend around 200 ducats on just the naval boost instead or just the shipyard.

I didn't get a chance to do anything tonight unfortunately.

 

[MattyG]

My issue was more that there was no option C. I had to spend 800 ducats whichever option I took which would have bankrupted me. 600 is a sensible amount but it would be nice to still have an option C where you can choose to spend around 200 ducats on just the naval boost instead or just the shipyard.

I didn't get a chance to do anything tonight unfortunately.

OK, I'll add an option C.

 

[MattyG]

I altered the Shipyard event, adding two more options and reducing the base cost.

This event was removed entirely from INT2, I actually don't think it's a good event. If the player wants to build a Shipyard ... build a shipyard.

Here is the 'lead in' event I penned

event = {
	id = 462170
	random = no
	country = SIC
	trigger = { 
		atwar = no
	}
	name = "The Romance of Ancient Carthage"
	desc = "The relationship between the cities of the island of Sicily and those across the sea on the coast of Africa now dated over a millenium. Wars had been fought, yes, but far more trade, the exchange of ideas and peoples. For humdreds of years the regions were united within the same empires and the peoples share customs, words and a love of commerce. With the Sicilians unlikely to challenge Genoa for supremacy of the north of the peninsula, the court has begun to look across the waters, to old carthage. If it can secure all sides of the mediterranean it could control trade. And the people, though muslims, will welcome Sicilian rule over that of the pirate sultans."
	date = { year = 1430 }
	offset = 200
	deathdate = { year = 1450 }

	action_a = {
		name = "There is much to be gained taking Tunis and Tripoli"
		command = { type = relation which = NAF value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUN value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = TRI value = -25 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "Trade with old carthage will do just fine"
		command = { type = relation which = NAF value = 25 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUN value = 25 }
		command = { type = relation which = TRI value = 25 }
	}
}

 

[Dell19]

Thanks for the changes, they look good.

 

[panther-anthro]

Looks fine. Glad that we got some extra content for 1.05 ^^

 

[idont]

Hmmm. See, we have a philosophy here of No Free Lunch. Players can already outplay the ai, so giving them cheap manufactories and other buildings through events is a little crazy. The Shipyard event gives you the chance to construct a building that is ahead of time and costs you as much as it would if you were normally able to build it. Yes, it is expensive, but there are advantages and, like anything, it is a juicy decision you have to make based on the conditions you are experiencing. However, I do think 800 is a touch steep. I will lower it to 600.

One of the problems with making the player pay for things is that those events tend to come out of the blue. This means that players who don't study the event files might suddenly find themselves bankrupted, through no fault of their own.
I think events that represent some long term investment should have a warning event, that tells the player that the king is thinking about building a shipyard, and will want 800 ducats in 5 years, or something like that.

 

[MattyG]

One of the problems with making the player pay for things is that those events tend to come out of the blue. This means that players who don't study the event files might suddenly find themselves bankrupted, through no fault of their own.
I think events that represent some long term investment should have a warning event, that tells the player that the king is thinking about building a shipyard, and will want 800 ducats in 5 years, or something like that.

I agree with your premise her and especially the "out of the blue" comment.

My personal preference is to have these events broken into pieces, representing investment over time. great shipyards were not built instantly, but over decades, and the events could relfect this.

Another way to do it to reduce workload is to restructure the approach. Currently we offer a cheaper or ahead-of-time building of some kind, and demand payment. But instead of asking for cash for it, it might be better to simple reduce the tax value of that province, to reflect the regional ivestment of resources in the project. Thus:

event = {
	id = 
	random = no
	province = 259
	trigger = {
		control = { province = 259 data = -1 }
		stability = 1
	}
	name = "The Great Building of This province"
	desc = "We are going to builod something magnificent! It will make us a great power!"
	date = { year = 1450 }
	offset = 300
	deathdate = { year = 1460 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Let's make this 30 year investment!"
		command = { type = gainbuilding which = 259 value = shipyard }
		command = { type = provincetax which = 259 value = -2 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "No thanks"
		command = { type = sleepevent which =  }
	}
}

No bankruptcy. No need to read the event file. No inflation.

Then, a certain time later ...

event = {
	id = 
	random = no
	province = 259
	trigger = {
		control = { province = 259 data = -1 }
		stability = 1
		event = 
	}
	name = "The completion of the Great Building"
	desc = "That idea was a real corker. And now out building is humming along just nicely"
	date = { year = 1470 }
	offset = 300
	deathdate = { year = 1480 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Great"
		command = { type = provincetax which = 259 value = 2 }
	}
}

Of course, some of these could be more date specific, tied to an indiividual etc. I like that in this one above the time it takes could differ. maybe the project costs more than you thought? Maybe less? The uncertainty is sweet.

The more I think about it, the more I think this flashbulb idea of mine is absolutely brilliant.

 

[panther-anthro]

That's actually pretty good idea Matty.

 

[MattyG]

That's actually pretty good idea Matty.

I ahve begun the process of recoding and ading events for these major building events.

It will be one of my three mains projects for 1.06, along with the Altmark thingy and the bug fixing (Iberian Crusade et al).

 

[Garbon]

Hopefully you plan on fixing those texts.

 

[panther-anthro]

Garbon, I'm working on a comprehensive event database, but it really needs matty's approval before I can put it where I want to.

 

[MattyG]

Hopefully you plan on fixing those texts.

Hwat ar yuo sugestink?

 

[panther-anthro]

Hwat ar yuo sugestink?

he syain oru splleing be nto good!

 

[MattyG]

he syain oru splleing be nto good!

On! Yas ti s'nit Uret!