So, settled nomads will not be a thing?

[Pups' Socks]

As the title says. There is mention in the dev diaries settling as a feudal or clan while playing nomads yourself, but unless I somehow missed on it while reading dev diaries, settling nomads is not a thing, which is curious when you are able to settle adventurers. Not to mention something that is very easy to add and yet not mentioned either, adding people of nomadic origin that were already "settled" within the borders of another state, settled here is in quotation marks because "settling" of these nomads did not mean in each case that they had become non nomads, while we have Cumans holding pronoia in 1181, Pechenegs who had settled in Byzantine Empire in 1040s kept their nomadic ways for decades and Cumans/Kipchaks that settled in Georgia with Atraka (whose daughter was the queen of David IV the builder ) kept their nomadic ways for sometime too.

Settling nomads (and addition of already settled ones) should be an important part of the upcoming dlc considering not only did it happen several times before and during the time between our existing start dates, but it also continued to happen after that and we have many prominent people who are either nomads themselves or descendants of these nomads.
With the coming of the Mongols, many Cumans fled to Hungary in 13th century, Georgia saw a "second wave" of Cumans coming during the reign of Tamar, by that time descendants of Cumans were already holding prominent positions, such as Qutlu Arslan who was treasurer and Kubasar who was Constable, both during the reign of Tamar's father. Rump states of Byzantine Empire also saw many Cumans settled in early 13th century.

There were plenty of prominent people in Byzantine Empire who were either nomads who were settled or descendants of nomads, just to give a couple of examples I had not already given elsewhere, Syrgiannis, for example, was Megas Domestikos for Andronikos II Palaiologos and one of the empresses of Leo VI, Eudokia Baiana most likely came from a family that were originally nomads, her name is thought to be derived from Bayan, which is a title of Bulgars and is also the name of several Avar Khagans(as well as several Bulgars if Batbayan counts) and the earliest seal with the name Bayan belongs to a patrikios and strategos whose seal is dated to 7th or 8th century.

Turkic tribes have already been given the shaft in this dlc despite Mongolian army was mainly made up of Turkic tribes and with Q&A video answer, there is no certainty at all if they will get content in the future or not, the least you can do is add some small, easy to add flavor like these that would also improve the historical accuracy of the game.

 

[Mercedes Romero]

settled nomads are a thing, they've talked about that quite a bit

 

[Pups' Socks]

settled nomads are a thing, they've talked about that quite a bit

Where? Dev Diaries speak about settling as nomads when you are playing them but not settling nomads in your lands like you would with adventurers and definitely not adding settled Cumans, Pechenegs etc. within the borders of Byzantine Empire, Georgia, Hungary etc.

 

[naq29]

Where? Dev Diaries speak about settling as nomads when you are playing them but not settling nomads in your lands like you would with adventurers and definitely not adding settled Cumans, Pechenegs etc. within the borders of Byzantine Empire, Georgia, Hungary etc.

in general, the game doesn't model immigration

 

[Videogames]

settled nomads are a thing, they've talked about that quite a bit

I think the title of the thread is misleading. The OP is specifically talking about the ability of settled realms to import and integrate nomads into their realms (benefiting from their cavalry skills until they had assimilated to the extent they no longer possessed such skills), rather than the ability of nomad rulers to settle within territories they have conquered. The former is an interesting phenomenon and could have been part of a balancing mechanism for settled realms to benefit from bordering the steppes instead of just being menaced by it, but it wasn't present as a mechanic in CK2 and sounds like it won't be in CK3 either.

 

[Pups' Socks]

I think the title of the thread is misleading. The OP is specifically talking about the ability of settled realms to import and integrate nomads into their realms (benefiting from their cavalry skills until they had assimilated to the extent they no longer possessed such skills), rather than the ability of nomad rulers to settle within territories they have conquered. The former is an interesting phenomenon and could have been part of a balancing mechanism for settled realms to benefit from bordering the steppes instead of just being menaced by it, but it wasn't present as a mechanic in CK2 and sounds like it won't be in CK3 either.

Actually it was present to an extent in CK2 where you could offer land to nomads who were dispossesed of their lands. In CK3 we also have a mechanic for settling adventurers but unless I somehow missed it, there is no mention of allowing nomads to settle within your realm, which is curious considering we already have a mechanic for settling with the adventurers.

 

[Quuaddib]

Actually it was present to an extent in CK2 where you could offer land to nomads who were dispossesed of their lands. In CK3 we also have a mechanic for settling adventurers but unless I somehow missed it, there is no mention of allowing nomads to settle within your realm, which is curious considering we already have a mechanic for settling with the adventurers.

From what is said in the Dev Diaries, I'd assume that they don't want to make dealing with nomadic vessels too easy and therefore don't want to allow settling nomads the way you can with adventurers. In DD #166, they wrote about nomadic factions:

The goal is to make it unattractive for settled rulers to hold nomad lands, as they will be attacked by revolting nomads on a semi-regular interval - feudalizing the holdings will be crucial to stop this. Of course, defeating them will pacify their lands for a while.

So it seems the intention is that you have to eventually feudalize nomadic holdings if you want to hold "nomadic" lands and until then you'll have to deal with the factions. I like the idea of landing nomads that you propose, but I'm not sure how one could make it fit in with the intended design described above.

 

[klopkr]

Yeah like @Pups' Socks said, this is a thing in CK2 to an extent.

It seems that nomadic government is pretty tied to the steppe. I do wonder what happens to Nomads when they are outside of the steppe regions completely.

What I want to see is a type of nomad only available as a vassal to a settled realm outside of the steppe region. They would still have most nomad mechanics but less penalties for not migrating and expanding and be very very tumultuous vassals... but they would give their liege some nomadic men at arms or even act as a mercenary band type vassal you hire in a group.

Nomads could then have an event while raiding or a CB to settle inside a non nomadic realm. If they win or negotiate with the ruler they get a county or duchy depending on their strength but stay nomadic, just as a vassal. Since they're outside of the steppe they may need to move less and lose fertility slower and maybe be able to get taxes from cities/temples/castles in their domain but then have to spend that on heard to keep their life style. With a little effort they could then switch to their rulers government if they want... or not.

These kinds of vassals would be interesting and add some more interactions with nomads for feudal realms instead of just fending them off.

Or maybe they don't even get land but can become a vassal of a feudal lord and have to move their Yurt into their lands like an adventurer camp.

From what is said in the Dev Diaries, I'd assume that they don't want to make dealing with nomadic vessels too easy and therefore don't want to allow settling nomads the way you can with adventurers. In DD #166, they wrote about nomadic factions:

So it seems the intention is that you have to eventually feudalize nomadic holdings if you want to hold "nomadic" lands and until then you'll have to deal with the factions. I like the idea of landing nomads that you propose, but I'm not sure how one could make it fit in with the intended design described above.

No you don't understand. This is different than holding steppe lands. This is having nomadic vassals in non steppe lands. Which happened from time to time.

Steppe land should still be much much harder to hold and the steppe region mechanic only adds to the ability to delineate the difference... but also their mechanics for holding steppe land is pretty similar to CK2s it sounds like so probably dirt easy to control.

I think the steppe region should not be rulable by non nomads at all. Instead you need to make a nomad there a steppe nomad vassal which would be incredibly rebellious and prone to succeeding on every succession. Settling the region would be a long term project with lots of requirements that would eventually remove the region from the steppe and making the nomads there act more like the ones I described above and be able to settle.

 

[Pups' Socks]

What I want to see is a type of nomad only available as a vassal to a settled realm outside of the steppe region. They would still have most nomad mechanics but less penalties for not migrating and expanding and be very very tumultuous vassals... but they would give their liege some nomadic men at arms or even act as a mercenary band type vassal you hire in a group.

Nomads could then have an event while raiding or a CB to settle inside a non nomadic realm. If they win or negotiate with the ruler they get a county or duchy depending on their strength but stay nomadic, just as a vassal. Since they're outside of the steppe they may need to move less and lose fertility slower and maybe be able to get taxes from cities/temples/castles in their domain but then have to spend that on heard to keep their life style. With a little effort they could then switch to their rulers government if they want... or not.

This is pretty much Pechenegs in Byzantine Empire who first settled in 1040s and were still nomadic in 1080s. I'm not sure if Cumans in Hungary kept their nomadic ways or those who came to Byzantine Empire after the 4th crusade did, but there is mention of Cuman pronoia in 1181, so we know there had been earlier groups that came and did not keep their nomadic ways. Those in Georgia, that is the remainder of the first group that came with Otrak/Atraka, father of Gurandukht, queen of David IV(Atrak eventually returned home and some followed him back), also adapted the ways of their rulers and by the time of the 1178 start there were several "Naqivchaqari" in important positions such as Amirspasalar(Constable, Commander-in-Chief) Kubasar(From 1177 until his removal in 1184) and Mechurchletukhutsesi (Royal treasurer) Qutlu Arslan (also removed in 1184).

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Amirspasalar

For some reason, seeing Cumans using Amir+sipasalar as a name amuses me.
On a more serious note, did the Cumans who settled in Georgia practice (Orthodox) Christianity or Islam?

Two cents on thread topic: in the 867 start, nomadic peoples (among others) settled near or within cities along the Tang dynasty's northern frontier formed an important part of its military. In real life, these forces would very shortly prove instrumental in the dynasty's survival: in 868, Shatuo (a Turkic people) clans turned into a Tang army marched south to quell the Pang Xun uprising. A 15-year old boy named Li Keyong would prove his courage and prowess in the war - this being his first step on a long road to becoming one of the two most powerful men in China.

 

[Slime99]

I think landless vassal nomads who extract fertility from the county they reside in but have to join all liege wars would be cool. For landed vassal nomads, I think they should be really unruly but could also be called to wars, but they could refuse to do so too if crown authority is low enough. Both types could leave if crown authority is low too.

 

[Mercedes Romero]

Would this not be modelled in the current system by hybridizing culture?

 

[klopkr]

Would this not be modelled in the current system by hybridizing culture?

How so?

I don't think so. We're talking about the government not the culture.

 

[Pups' Socks]

For some reason, seeing Cumans using Amir+sipasalar as a name amuses me.
On a more serious note, did the Cumans who settled in Georgia practice (Orthodox) Christianity or Islam?

Two cents on thread topic: in the 867 start, nomadic peoples (among others) settled near or within cities along the Tang dynasty's northern frontier formed an important part of its military. In real life, these forces would very shortly prove instrumental in the dynasty's survival: in 868, Shatuo (a Turkic people) clans turned into a Tang army marched south to quell the Pang Xun uprising. A 15-year old boy named Li Keyong would prove his courage and prowess in the war - this being his first step on a long road to becoming one of the two most powerful men in China.

Edit: on Amirspasalar, perhaps it wasn’t clear, it is his title and not name so it is not four people but two people with their titles and in parantheses the meaning/function of the titles. There were of course many others in important positions but these two are the ones I remember that held positions in any relevant start date.

Christianity. There are those who did not stay in Georgia and moved elsewhere(second group, not Atraka’s group) so they may have converted to Islam, but Orthodox Cumans/Kipchaks existed in Eastern regions of Black Sea until very recently, a few ten thousand Kipchaks(I don’t know if they settled under Georgia, or Trebizond or perhaps even much later and under Ottomans) part of the population exchange between Greece and Turkey because they were Orthodox Christians.

If you were thinking about a specific ethnic group in Georgia who are Muslims and claim Cuman/Kipchak ancestry, while they do claim that, their rulers who became hereditary pashas under Ottoman Empire were from a very old Georgian noble house and the region they are from has nothing to do with the Kipchak settlements as far as I know.

 

[Pups' Socks]

Would this not be modelled in the current system by hybridizing culture?

No. This is not a single thing that would be handled by hybridization but several things, first is a nomadic group “settling” in a county and the county getting that groups culture, second, that nomadic group deciding on its government, whether they’ll immediately settle down and become sedantery or keep their nomadic ways, third, if they initially kept their ways whether they’ll eventually become sedantery, fourth, after becoming sedantery mingling with nearby peoples and only after some time has passed becoming, in game mechanics, a hybrid culture.

Speaking of hybrid cultures, while I do use it frequently, I do not like the mentality of click button and magical things happen. It should gradually happen over time. While convert culture is also magicky, it at least takes some time.

Crusader Kings seriously needs some population mechanics like that of the Stellaris (last played Stellaris 3 years ago so don’t know if it changed) to be better able to simulate some things instead of click to see awesome stuff happen, like people change identity in vast swathes of land, peasant levies (which itself is terrible in the first place) pop from nowhere etc.