Soviet purges changed a little for 1.3

[unmerged(51416)]

One of main reasons I rarely play USSR is that I don't like loosing Zhukov some other of most famous leaders during purge. I decided to change it, so here it is. I changed starting dates of the folowing leaders to 1939.

Chuikov
Konev
Kulik
Meretskov
Shaposhnikov
Timoshenko
Vassilevskij
Vlassov
Voroshilov
Zhukov

Pro - you save them from purge so you can have some more historical flavour
Con - you have them later, so early warmongering may not be very good idea..

Here's the download http://rapidshare.de/files/11389660/soviet.zip.html

simply unpack into your HoI\db\leaders directory

 

[unmerged(47177)]

Do you lose any of those duringhte purge?
The USSR always sends Voroshilov and Zhukov against me after having purges.

 

[unmerged(51416)]

The main problem with "purge" event is that you lose many (147 to be exact ) random leaders. So you don't have to lose them, but i'm the unlucky guy that lose them frequently which takes away much flavour from the game.

Also if you start after 1938 they will surely own these commanders.

 

[ozman2]

I recommend changing the purge event date to June 11, 1937, which is the date that Tukhachevsky and the others were shot. Then you can start the leaders in 1938. I don't think the SU was cut out for early warmongering--it doesn't really become an effective force until 1942. I agree with saving the most valuable officers from the purge, as I have slowly come to the conclusion that Stalin not only wanted political loyalty but effective officers as well. Zhukov was actually amongst the accused officers, but he managed to convince his interrogators that his accusers were party hacks out to make a name for themselves.

The effect of the purge should be to reduce your number of officers and ability to wage war from 1938-41, not to knock out the best ones. After the purges, Stalin not only trained new and often better officers but also released some of those purged from the prisons.

Thank you for the modification.

 

[unmerged(51416)]

I recommend changing the purge event date to June 11, 1937, which is the date that Tukhachevsky and the others were shot. Then you can start the leaders in 1938. I don't think the SU was cut out for early warmongering--it doesn't really become an effective force until 1942. I agree with saving the most valuable officers from the purge, as I have slowly come to the conclusion that Stalin not only wanted political loyalty but effective officers as well. Zhukov was actually amongst the accused officers, but he managed to convince his interrogators that his accusers were party hacks out to make a name for themselves.

The effect of the purge should be to reduce your number of officers and ability to wage war from 1938-41, not to knock out the best ones. After the purges, Stalin not only trained new and often better officers but also released some of those purged from the prisons.

Thank you for the modification.

I wanted to change as little as I could, so I only moved officers a little forward. IMHO, Stalin wanted loyal officers only, military capabilities were of second importance. Everything changed when the war broke - then he needed best leaders, or at least good ones.

Also, purge came out of control IMHO. To purge was to prove yourself loyal to Stalin, so many even "unplanned", better leaders probably ended killed (too many killed in too short time). That's why there are so many random leaders killed in an event. But some of them had too much favour from Stalin (Voroshilov), some others should be kept for flavour (for all history-lovers ). Zhukov could have been killed in a purge but he wasn't, so let's keep him.

As I wrote above, delaying possible attack by USSR is only minor side effect - as it's pointless to attack earlier, I agree. I never do this myself, USSR main goal is to bring revolution to the world

Thank's for feedback. BTW, if you are interested you can find same modification with sorted leaders (realy pays a lot for leader-rich countires like USSR). Look for it in my signature .

 

[Blodwen]

Q: Is the original totally random? Because losing someone like Voroshilov but keeping Tukhachevsky should be impossible.

 

[unmerged(51416)]

Q: Is the original totally random? Because losing someone like Voroshilov but keeping Tukhachevsky should be impossible.

If you're asking about the game event, then you lose many specified leaders (including Alksnis and Tukhachevsky) and many other leaders, plus over 100 random ones.

 

[unmerged(43918)]

"IMHO, Stalin wanted loyal officers only, military capabilities were of second importance. Everything changed when the war broke - then he needed best leaders, or at least good ones."

That's a fallacy. Military capabilities were a prior cause of the military purge - civilian purge was made because of the loyality.

I don't think the SU was cut out for early warmongering--it doesn't really become an effective force until 1942.

That's a fallacy. Until the 1941 06 22 was a most powerfull military power in the world. After a biggest strategic mistake , cadres and regular armies were crippled by the stupid orders from stupid officers - like Zhukov.

(147 to be exact ) random leaders.

:/ That is also a fallacy. Not random leaders should be purged, but only those thar really were purged. Maniacs, like Tuchachevsky, Dybenko, Blucher (he was one of the first to be shot! But in many games I keep that idiot on the USSR East!), Alksnis and so on. It is not really hard to get all their names, because there were not many gen. mayors - marshals purged.

I also think there should be an event in 1941 07, because many cadres and military officers (like Pavlov) were shot. I think there should be three options - no purge, minor purge (historical), mayor purge (Zhukov, Saldykov, maybe even Tymoshenko...). While mayor purge would increase decent, but officers, like Rokkosovski (I don't know how to spell it in english ), Bagramian, Vasilevski, Vatutin, Shaposhnikov and so on would have their skills and ranks increased. Actually most of the Soviet officers had waaay lower ranks, than their actuall position. To be kept motivated and easily replacable.

 

[unmerged(51416)]

Welcome to the forum, G.I.Z.

That's a fallacy. Military capabilities were a prior cause of the military purge - civilian purge was made because of the loyality.

I smell Suvorov here . Talking seriously, it's obvious that those killed were the biggest butchers, like Frinovski, Tuhachevsky and so on.. But they were also independent, not willing to give all the power to Stalin, earlier oposition to him. Stalin didn't forgive and they had to pay for it.

The problem here is that military officers need education - and whole russian system was very ineffective (at the beginning, it later changed) in giving it, as it nagated even need of existance of "intelligency" class. That's why USSR military leaders made so many mistakes during Civil war, Polish-Bolshevik war 1920. But at least they had "some" experience.

Still incopetence of some of them can crush (Tuhachevski, Blucher) and their new concepts for strategy are plain stupid ("red napoleon" Tuhachevski: "strategic reserves are not needed in modern warfare" ) But many had not only experience, but also some military training (former carist NCOs etc.). IMHO, the most important effect of the purge was drastical reduction of military capabilities of the middle officer corps. Forget incopetent commanders capable of only mass killings like Tuhachevski, whose fame came only from russian efficent propaganda.

That's a fallacy. Until the 1941 06 22 was a most powerfull military power in the world. After a biggest strategic mistake , cadres and regular armies were crippled by the stupid orders from stupid officers - like Zhukov.

This "stupid orders from stupid officers" only pays to my point of view.. Number of their eqipment was enormous, but IMHO their sound defeats came from unability to finish easiest tasks, or even misreading direction (I know one example!).

Zhukov was one of the biggest $*^%@ in history for his soldiers. Dedicating his memoirs "to soviet soldier" is an insult for him. But he was against leaving troops in Kiev (1941), led good counter-offensives. I'm not saying he was any kind of genius (just finished B.Fugate, L.Dworiecki "Thunder on the Dnepr" so I know who am I against ), but he was capable of doing some stuff right. The problem for russians was uneffective doctrince, that didn't care for soldiers, only for strategic goals.. IF, and only IF, we find this doctrine reasonable, we have to admit that he was a genius, as he was very efficent in reaching strategic goals.

:/ That is also a fallacy. Not random leaders should be purged, but only those thar really were purged. Maniacs, like Tuchachevsky, Dybenko, Blucher (he was one of the first to be shot! But in many games I keep that idiot on the USSR East!), Alksnis and so on. It is not really hard to get all their names, because there were not many gen. mayors - marshals purged.

Unless it came out of control. Agree only that this number was too big. But here remembering of how the system worked is critical - plan for NKVD units was to capture "at least" some amount of people (who cares guilty or not guilty). Surely the officer purge look diffrently, but indicating some "extra" traitors could win the favours of supervisors. And if he was someone's personal enemy..

Personaly I'd reduce this number to around 50 random leaders (out of around 300)

I also think there should be an event in 1941 07, because many cadres and military officers (like Pavlov) were shot.

Too many events to add (as too many generals were shot down). You can either send them in "packs": "officer purge of 1941", "officer purge of 1942" with condition "at war" etc., or simply wait until the end of the year - the officers will be dead (according to deathdates in leader files). Overally great idea, but also a lot of work

I think there should be three options - no purge, minor purge (historical), mayor purge (Zhukov, Saldykov, maybe even Tymoshenko...). While mayor purge would increase decent, but officers, like Rokkosovski (I don't know how to spell it in english ), Bagramian, Vasilevski, Vatutin, Shaposhnikov and so on would have their skills and ranks increased. Actually most of the Soviet officers had waaay lower ranks, than their actuall position. To be kept motivated and easily replacable.

You can't increase rank nor skill by experience I doubt Zhukov could be purged, Stalin favoured him for ability to tell the truth, so I changed this event to include those most favoured by Stalin.

 

[unmerged(43918)]

But they were also independent, not willing to give all the power to Stalin, earlier oposition to him. Stalin didn't forgive and they had to pay for it.

I agree. But their death was actually a positive fact for the soviets.

That's why USSR military leaders made so many mistakes during Civil war, Polish-Bolshevik war 1920. But at least they had "some" experience.

I couldn't say there was any kind of 'military' in these years... Just bloody bands of criminals and bloody experiments. How can there be any 'military experience', when Tuchachevski got his ass kicked by Pilsudski?!
I'm from Lithuania, and when 1918 our army was established it consisted of one thousand volunteers - later aprox. ten thousand. These volunteers had defected german soldiers, czarists benders on their asses, and still even they have beaten bolsheviks. Was it a famous RWPA? Certainly no. Just those "talented" widemouths like Trocki could say so.
The problem was that all 'the system' was rotten from the begining. Manyacs, criminals, defected saylors, spivs and so on.

I would say that leutenant that graduated the FnA, was more inteligent than most of the USSR marshals until 1938. They were hussar kind of soldiers - capable just of swinging their sabres, rather than strategists.

IMHO, the most important effect of the purge was drastical reduction of military capabilities of the middle officer corps

That what I was thinking, when I read Anfilov or T.Bagramian: "Damn 40-60 thousand cadres! Well, there weren't that many high rank officers. And what is the point to kill petty officers - most of them were 'politically' educated. So that must be middle rank officers".
Actually this is very doubtfull.

Scales, scales, where are the numbers? No, really, what are the numbers?
~60000 were repressed. So say commies.

In fact purges and repressions were going all the time, since 1917, and mostly civilians suffered.
In 37-38 12000 of them were shot. Others were retired, put in jail, GULAG and so on.

Ok, so we have 12000 "officers" shot. We may never get the true scales, because RF is keeping their archives tight. But it is a fact, that many under the sentence of death were politicians, cadres of NKVD, civilians, intelllectuals, high ranked office holders.

In example - 1937 the director and the deputy of Artek were shot. They were accused of the plot against Molotov and Stalin. Cool, eh? Simple officeholder of scout camp was accused of murder plan. There were thousands like him.


So it is really irresponsable to say that capabilities of middle officers were drastically reduced.

IMHO their sound defeats came from unability to finish easiest tasks, or even misreading direction

IMHO - * overconfidence of their plans
* overconfidence of Zhukov and too many high rank officers veneered that careerist, thus Stalin, Malenkov, Shaposhnikov had too much trust in him.
* Super priorited offencive.
* High attendence to the primare strategic plan in 1941

But he was against leaving troops in Kiev (1941), led good counter-offensives.

That was only his words! We don't have proof that he said so, but we have proof, that when Wermacht was suffocated Kiev, Zhukov was suffcating his soldiers massively by attacking bridgehead near Moscow. He didn't even hit Wermacht in the back near the Kiev, but he threw his soldiers on dragon teeth in strategically unimportant area. He haven't done any good decisions. Never. That is why Stalin 'adopted' Vasilevski after 1941. Zhukov was an idiot, and such a 'toy general' like Napoleon. Even Hitler and Goering were much brighter than he ever was!

Stalin favoured him for ability to tell the truth

When did he had guts to face Stalin? In year 1953 maybe
There is no proof that he was ever
obstinate, when dealing with Stalin. In fact he was either a biggest coward or a biggest liar from the surrounding of Stalin.

Anyway, I think that event Great Purge event should increase rank of other officers...

 

[unmerged(51416)]

I decided to split my answer into 3 sections, as this discussion is growing, subjects are expanding

I agree. But their death was actually a positive fact for the soviets.

It depends . From moral point of view - definitely. Highest military cadre (marshals etc.) - militarily, too. But what with middle commanders etc?

I couldn't say there was any kind of 'military' in these years... Just bloody bands of criminals and bloody experiments. How can there be any 'military experience', when Tuchachevski got his ass kicked by Pilsudski?!
I'm from Lithuania, and when 1918 our army was established it consisted of one thousand volunteers - later aprox. ten thousand. These volunteers had defected german soldiers, czarists benders on their asses, and still even they have beaten bolsheviks. Was it a famous RWPA? Certainly no. Just those "talented" widemouths like Trocki could say so.
The problem was that all 'the system' was rotten from the begining. Manyacs, criminals, defected saylors, spivs and so on.

Definitely agree. They first purged most of their "enemies" who had the knowledge how to fight. Then they failed in creating "new, revolutionary strategy" - rules of warfare didn't change simply becouse someone said they will. The only thing they were capable of - was supressing almost unarmed peasants etc.

But, stupid as it sounds, it's a military experience, too. At least they knew how to command units. Or how to retreat so they won't be catch . Seriously, some silly USSR mistakes you can read about in some memoirs - during first few months (before they "laid under fire" few times), lead me to thought that it had it's reason. The purge.

I would say that leutenant that graduated the FnA, was more inteligent than most of the USSR marshals until 1938. They were hussar kind of soldiers - capable just of swinging their sabres, rather than strategists.

Surely, but here comes one problem.. Numbers. RKKA was growing very fast - much faster then before. That's why some "officers" weren't ready to command - didn't finished neither FnA, nor fought during civil war. War sorted them out - but with their soldiers. And that's why, IMO, it would be more beneficial to USSR to leave bigger part of the officer corps intact.

Also, numbers prove one more thing - some of withdrawed officers were probably good, but didn't have the chance to "show" themselves (mind, here I reffer only to those who didn't take any "big" command)

EDIT: As for Zhukov, I'll respond later

 

[unmerged(51416)]

That what I was thinking, when I read Anfilov or T.Bagramian: "Damn 40-60 thousand cadres! Well, there weren't that many high rank officers. And what is the point to kill petty officers - most of them were 'politically' educated. So that must be middle rank officers".
Actually this is very doubtfull.

Scales, scales, where are the numbers? No, really, what are the numbers?
~60000 were repressed. So say commies.

In fact purges and repressions were going all the time, since 1917, and mostly civilians suffered.
In 37-38 12000 of them were shot. Others were retired, put in jail, GULAG and so on.

Ok, so we have 12000 "officers" shot. We may never get the true scales, because RF is keeping their archives tight. But it is a fact, that many under the sentence of death were politicians, cadres of NKVD, civilians, intelllectuals, high ranked office holders.

In example - 1937 the director and the deputy of Artek were shot. They were accused of the plot against Molotov and Stalin. Cool, eh? Simple officeholder of scout camp was accused of murder plan. There were thousands like him.

As you wrote before, it's all about the system. Killing even innocents was good - if it helped to fulfill "the plan". As it comes to the numbers, I cite after Suvorov:

1937 - 20.643 officers discharged,
1938 - 16.118
together it gives 36.761

Only 10.868 of them were arrested (all the others - fired disciplinary, retired etc., so not subject of political puge). So it wasn't such a big number as previously written (and many of them were put back to army as Barbarossa fired), but still a significant one. As I wrote before, quantity was very important for soviets - and few officers more thrown at their enemy, that at least knew how to fight, would be a big adv.

Another side effect is stress. Risk of beeing shot by your political officer is too much to think about complex strategy. Another thing is that soviet war doctrine discouraged any kind of complex strategy - favoured head-on attacks with heavy casualties

BTW, I'm familiar to all purge system in USSR. That's why I'm sick when commies emphasise 1937-8 purge. As long as they purged - everything was OK. But when they WERE PURGED - it was wrong. And nothing can beat "espionage for Alasca" (sic!)

So it is really irresponsable to say that capabilities of middle officers were drastically reduced.

Not unntil you see their actions . Another thing that they were mainly seen by Germans..

 

[unmerged(49243)]

I've always wondered how the Soviet purges are modeled in the game but the holocaust is a forbidden topic. Shouldn't the leaders just disappear in the year without a notification? BTW, a theory exists, that Germany made it look like many of the purged were traitors giving information to Germany, and were killed because of that...

 

[Dunderdon]

I've always wondered how the Soviet purges are modeled in the game but the holocaust is a forbidden topic. Shouldn't the leaders just disappear in the year without a notification? BTW, a theory exists, that Germany made it look like many of the purged were traitors giving information to Germany, and were killed because of that...

They were killed because they shared the ideas of trotsky, founder of the left opposition and political enemy of stalin and his politics.

 

[unmerged(51416)]

I've always wondered how the Soviet purges are modeled in the game but the holocaust is a forbidden topic. Shouldn't the leaders just disappear in the year without a notification? BTW, a theory exists, that Germany made it look like many of the purged were traitors giving information to Germany, and were killed because of that...

We don't have entire great purge, only military one. It's suppose to be a strategic wargame, so if anything toutches military matters - you are "involved" . I know this theory (R. Heydrich - later chief or RSHA - was the man responsible), but it's unlikely; purge was too important to Stalin to rely on such a piece of paper. And it began earlier then provocation.

They were killed because they shared the ideas of trotsky, founder of the left opposition and political enemy of stalin and his politics.

Well, it depends. If we are talking about policy of fighting against your own nation, then they weren't opposition. If we are talking about political opposition - some of them (like Tukchachevski) were in opposition. But why "left opposition"? It reminds me one of the later ideas of Stalin - "right-left opposition"..

It doesn't really matter what do you think - it matters who you are fighting against. If you'll lose, we'll find good reason to shoot you. That's communism. Simple.