status of Flanders

[Spruce]

hello,

I've got a weird situation, but it's true. The Flemish count Boudewijn V was very powerful, he was that powerful that he had 2 lieges and was recognised as such (so he got lands from both the French king and the German Emperor (1056),

So they had a double vassal status and were in some degree independent as the kings punish expeditions failed,

in 1060 the Flemish count took up regecency of the French kingdom making him the "chief" of the French vassals.

So in the CK tier system, would he be a French Duke and a German count?

 

[Captain Frakas]

To have several suzerains is common to the Middle-Ages.
The suzerains have created the liege homage to fight the multi-affiliation of their vassal, but that did not function very well : the vassal contracting several homages liege.
I fear this subtlety isn't integrated by Paradox into Crusader Kings following their proverb "it's a game not a simulation".

 

[Spruce]

I don't think... it's a paradox game not a simulation

yes,

but how are they called in CK definitions?

are they Dukes (historically they were called counts, but in practice they were Dukes) because they had f.e. the county of Boulogne as a vassal or are they independent because they have 2 lieges - in practice they were more or less independent,

the Flemish counts were very bad for the French king mental condition,

oh did I mention they had a royal marriage with Normandy?

 

[unmerged(11633)]

Very powerful dukes, I imagine

 

[unmerged(21401)]

in CK it will most likely be a french duke and a seperate german count. double alliegance does not work in the engine i believe

 

[unmerged(8913)]

in CK it will most likely be a french duke and a seperate german count. double alliegance does not work in the engine i believe

Are you sure double alliegance does not work? Have you seen any posts saying that, or are you making an assumption about it?

 

[Spruce]

they should perhaps be considered to be independent because a French duke having also German counties is a bit weird,

perhaps casus belli from France and Germany on Flanders

 

[unmerged(21401)]

spruce, theres no "french" or "german" counties. since there arent what we would call countries. Its a battle of family dynasties.
a "french" duke(french because of his alligance to his liege the king of france) could very well own "german" counties without a problem.

marcus, its an assumption based on all the previous paradox games. you have never been able to serve to parties, ill explain, in alle games EU/EU2/VIC/HOI you cant be in more than one alliance. So i assume that you can only have one liege (essentially the leader of an internal alliance), because no previous game has had dual alliance.

 

[Spruce]

kblom,

let me be clear on the matter = the Flemish counts had 2 lieges = the French king and the German emperor, that's why in those days there was also an "Emperial" Flanders that had nothing to do with France,

this is not a fantasy, check it wherever you want,

the feudal system let a King let some vassal have a county as a loan (either trough conquest or trough gifts (had to be acknowlegded by the liege)), as a matter of rule that county belonged in fact to the liege - it was a loan,

the Flemish counts had both loans from the French king and German emperor,

they were acknowledged by their lieges,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06094b.htm

 

[unmerged(12680)]

spruce, theres no "french" or "german" counties. since there arent what we would call countries. Its a battle of family dynasties.
a "french" duke(french because of his alligance to his liege the king of france) could very well own "german" counties without a problem.

marcus, its an assumption based on all the previous paradox games. you have never been able to serve to parties, ill explain, in alle games EU/EU2/VIC/HOI you cant be in more than one alliance. So i assume that you can only have one liege (essentially the leader of an internal alliance), because no previous game has had dual alliance.

The Viccy alliance system was completely different from the EU/EU2/HoI system, and allowed you to have alliances with two countries fighting eachother, so it's not really new.

 

[unmerged(8913)]

marcus, its an assumption based on all the previous paradox games. you have never been able to serve to parties, ill explain, in alle games EU/EU2/VIC/HOI you cant be in more than one alliance. So i assume that you can only have one liege (essentially the leader of an internal alliance), because no previous game has had dual alliance.

Yeah - but this is a totally different game than all of those. Another plausible scenario for the game mechanics would be that a particular character could be a vassal to one liege for certain lands that he holds, and vassal to another for other lands. The point is, we don't *know* one way or the other how the game will handle this...

 

[Spruce]

Yeah - but this is a totally different game than all of those. Another plausible scenario for the game mechanics would be that a particular character could be a vassal to one liege for certain lands that he holds, and vassal to another for other lands. The point is, we don't *know* one way or the other how the game will handle this...

wise words, silly me - always posting difficult questions in the weekend,

OK about Emperial Flanders, summary in CK words =

- the county of Zeeland is a CK province and was a German loan, but vassal to Flanders,
- the county of Hainaut is a CK province and was a German loan (it got traded for the German county of Ename (not on the CK map)), but part/vassal of Flanders (not sure if it had vassal status to Flanders,

Let me say I don't have any intention of claiming some things how this should be in the game, it's simply a historical fact and am wondering how the game will be handling this = it's a game, not a simulation

 

[unmerged(22883)]

In the medieval times, just as the semi-modern (EU) period there was nothing strange that a noble owned land in two different kingdoms. For example (in the 1600-1700s) the swedish king was also duke of a part of Pommern. But that lands were never swedish lands but resided under the Holy roman emire (HRE). I.e. the swedish king as a nominal vassal under the HRE and the lands went under german law. So there ought not to be an impossibility that a noble was swearing different allegiences to different kings as a representative for the different titles.
There was also a possibility that the kings agreed that a land was to be semi-subjected to both of them. The county of Andorra for example payed tribute to both the Spanish and French kings as a result of that kind of an agreement.

As for the Flanders lands I think that I have seen it mentioned as an independent county back in the threads from the Snowball days when there was talk of only beeing able to play independent counties and dutchies.
But that might have been changed afterwards... :wacko:

 

[unmerged(6777)]

There are, as you say, many historical instances of a character holding lands and titles under more than one liege.

As you have surmised, this presents a problem when trying to incorporate it into a game system where a logic device (CPU) needs to be able to determine alliegence for the purposes of vassalage, taxation, levies, alliances, etc. While it is certainly possible for some sort of code to be devised to handle this, I suspect that it is either too complex - and thus too demanding on computer resources - or produces more "odd" results than not...ones that could only be resolved by looking at an historical database as to who supported who in what action - and knowing that the odds of the game following precise historical lines is remote and that the desire is to make a game that is fun to play as opposed to scripting an historical simulation. The bottom line is that no character may be a vassal of more than one other character.

So...on a case-by-case basis the researchers had to make a decision as to who would be the most appropriate liege - or whether independence was more representative of the situation - at the beginning of a scenario. Of course a vassal does not necessarily have to support his liege in an action...

 

[unmerged(21401)]

*I look at my fingers, pick up a nail polisher and start polishing. I casually glance at MrT's post*
Well I'll be ...... I was right, you guys were wrong

*finds a piece of cloth and starts polishing my halo*

 

[unmerged(8913)]

*I look at my fingers, pick up a nail polisher and start polishing. I casually glance at MrT's post*
Well I'll be ...... I was right, you guys were wrong

*finds a piece of cloth and starts polishing my halo*

How exactly was I wrong? My whole point was that we didn't know how the game mechanics worked in this instance - all I said was that my above post was 'another plausible scenario', in addition to what you listed...

 

[Spruce]

So...on a case-by-case basis the researchers had to make a decision as to who would be the most appropriate liege - or whether independence was more representative of the situation - at the beginning of a scenario. Of course a vassal does not necessarily have to support his liege in an action...

I agree, and it seems the Flemish counts should be loyal to only France in that scenario as they were seen as the "leader" of the vassals at that time (f.e. the Flemish regency of the French kingdom only a few years before the game starts),

on the one hand you have the practical independence and on the other hand you had the handy "usage" of the Flemish of the French feudal system, so both ways are easy to defend, let's see and wait,