Status of Toulouse

[Rylock]

I'm currently restoring the New Millenium bookmark, which requires a lot of fixing and tweaking...and one of the things that came up was the status of the County of Toulouse. In-game, that's really the duchy, and from the reading I've been doing it seems the duchy was more or less independent up until 1229, when the Albigensian Crusade started.

It's the "more or less" that concerns me. One could take its status to be "under French rule but France has zero CA" or "independent but under French crown law". The Duchy of Burgundy is independent in New Millenium, which it seems it was until the King of France pressed his claim to it after Duke Henry's death in 1002 -- but if it's independent, then shouldn't Toulouse also be? Or should neither or them be?

I have to admit that my knowledge of the region isn't up to par, but seeing as making Toulouse independent all the way until 1229 will affect most bookmarks that people use, and some might scratch their head at suddenly seeing a blob in the south of France and ask why. So I suppose I'm seeking opinion from those who know more about this than me.

 

[daniloy]

Could you make them perhaps an tributary to france?

 

[vukica]

i'd say independent, and there should definitely be several blobs in the south of france around the year 1000.

is it france or west francia?

EDIT:
some maps i've found
1035 map http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd_1911/shepherd-c-061.jpg
http://www.reisenett.no/map_collection/historical/Central_Europe_980.jpg

go with the blobs.

 

[horngeek]

Could you make them perhaps an tributary to france?

Unless there was a way to make tributary status last beyond the death of the ruler, it wouldn't be a good fit, unfortunately.

 

[Kalista]

Unless there was a way to make tributary status last beyond the death of the ruler, it wouldn't be a good fit, unfortunately.

Problem with that is the way tributes work. Way they should work is that you war them and after winning they should be paying you gold in exchange for protection from being attacked. In reality they act straight up like a vassal that will always answer your call to arms while providing money with no way to change that behavior.

 

[Rylock]

Do they always answer a call to arms? I thought they could refuse.

Regardless, I could create a system where tributaries last beyond the death of either ruler. Making them last when the rulers change in any other fashion (such as usurpation, war, or abdication) is much more difficult -- I'd need to put in a check before every single event code where such a change takes place...and that would be quite the task. If tributaries can't refuse a call to arms, however, then it'd be just as simple to make Toulouse a vassal of France, as the differences otherwise are pretty minimal.

 

[Kalista]

Do they always answer a call to arms? I thought they could refuse.

Regardless, I could create a system where tributaries last beyond the death of either ruler. Making them last when the rulers change in any other fashion (such as usurpation, war, or abdication) is much more difficult -- I'd need to put in a check before every single event code where such a change takes place...and that would be quite the task. If tributaries can't refuse a call to arms, however, then it'd be just as simple to make Toulouse a vassal of France, as the differences otherwise are pretty minimal.

In every test I've seen them follow me into my wars like a lost puppy to the point its become a strategy of mine when playing a minor power.

 

[Rylock]

In every test I've seen them follow me into my wars like a lost puppy to the point its become a strategy of mine when playing a minor power.

That doesn't mean they have to, necessarily, but it does make tributary a lot less useful as a "lesser" version of vassalage.

 

[Rylock]

EDIT:
some maps i've found
1035 map http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd_1911/shepherd-c-061.jpg
http://www.reisenett.no/map_collection/historical/Central_Europe_980.jpg

go with the blobs.

Except both those maps show Toulouse as part of France. I've found other maps which do the same, and only one that shows Toulouse as separate. None of that is definitive, of course, as interpretations regarding the level of independence will vary -- and, if I'm drawing a historical map, singling out such areas as completely separate could make it look quite messy.

So I suppose it comes down to which in-game effect is desireable.

If Toulouse is a vassal of France, even under 0 CA, it means they will be called into wars and can have their titles revoked. If they're independent, it means that Toulouse can do its own wars and possibly be taken over by an outside party, and France wouldn't intervene except to take the area back once they got to Medium CA.

 

[Arko]

if you make it independant in 1000 you'd have to make it independant until 1250's also. Same for a lot other countries (HRE's burgundian lands since KoBurgundy absorption, 90% of occitan lands in France etc. )
mind that Toulouse was an elector of France (pair of France) already in 1000. so i'd say being a de facto vassal in regards of game mechanics is reasonnable. the political status was "independant but not officially independant".
independant DoBurgundy on millenium sounds a bit odd i'd say.

 

[Rylock]

if you make it independant in 1000 you'd have to make it independant until 1250's also. Same for a lot other countries (HRE's burgundian lands since KoBurgundy absorption, 90% of occitan lands in France etc. )
mind that Toulouse was an elector of France (pair of France) already in 1000. so i'd say being a de facto vassal in regards of game mechanics is reasonnable. the political status was "independant but not officially independant".
independant DoBurgundy on millenium sounds a bit odd i'd say.

The Duchy of Burgundy was apparently in the same boat as the County of Toulouse, independence-wise, until the Duke's death in 1003 -- at which point the King of France (his nephew) pressed a claim to the lands. I am curious, however, as to what you mean by "an elector of France"...an elector in which way? The Count of Toulouse wasn't granted peerage in France until after 1216.

 

[Mixxer5]

Eh... CK2 really sucks at representing feudal dependencies, doesn't it?

I think that "perfect" solution would be making Toulouse independent and pay its dues by events. As long as its "independent", king of France can ask Toulouse to join his wars by decision. That way it is technically independent, but must pay fraction of its income and can be called to arms.

 

[vukica]

Except both those maps show Toulouse as part of France. I've found other maps which do the same, and only one that shows Toulouse as separate. None of that is definitive, of course, as interpretations regarding the level of independence will vary -- and, if I'm drawing a historical map, singling out such areas as completely separate could make it look quite messy.

So I suppose it comes down to which in-game effect is desireable.

If Toulouse is a vassal of France, even under 0 CA, it means they will be called into wars and can have their titles revoked. If they're independent, it means that Toulouse can do its own wars and possibly be taken over by an outside party, and France wouldn't intervene except to take the area back once they got to Medium CA.

both maps are "de jure". from what i can see it seems those southern french blobs were de facto independent, but basically drifted into being dependent because of reasons.

it is definitely not a relation that can be easily represented in ck2. you probably shouldn't worry too much about it, though. what ever you do it will be wrong from a historical point of view
so it all comes down to your opinion, what you think would work best, and be more fun for players.

 

[Rylock]

I think that "perfect" solution would be making Toulouse independent and pay its dues by events. As long as its "independent", king of France can ask Toulouse to join his wars by decision. That way it is technically independent, but must pay fraction of its income and can be called to arms.

If I wanted Toulouse to be independent but pay part of its income to France and yet still be called into wars, I would simply make it a tributary. That's what tributaries do.

both maps are "de jure". from what i can see it seems those southern french blobs were de facto independent, but basically drifted into being dependent because of reasons.

it is definitely not a relation that can be easily represented in ck2. you probably shouldn't worry too much about it, though. what ever you do it will be wrong from a historical point of view
so it all comes down to your opinion, what you think would work best, and be more fun for players.

Well, they didn't become dependent because of "reasons", really. The Duchy of Burgundy was fought over in a claim war, and Toulouse submitted at the end of the Albigensian Crusade. The Kingdom of Arles (Burgundy) became part of the HRE in 1032 through succession. If there are supposed to be other independent "blobs", I'm not aware of them.

As to what I think would work best...I'm not sure. There's only so far we can model actual history anyhow, but a land being independent or a vassal is a pretty fundamental difference that the game at least attempts to accommodate. I suppose no-one would really care either way.

 

[vukica]

oh, don't be like that, you know we care

 

[vyshan]

Unless there was a way to make tributary status last beyond the death of the ruler, it wouldn't be a good fit, unfortunately.

Well maybe the next patch will have something like this?

I think tributaries and client states need to be entirely different. Tributaries are brief and last one rulers life, client states last until challenged.

A neat idea, I think.

 

[Mixxer5]

Well maybe the next patch will have something like this?

Hehehe.. Good one

 

[Hrothgar I]

If I wanted Toulouse to be independent but pay part of its income to France and yet still be called into wars, I would simply make it a tributary. That's what tributaries do.



Well, they didn't become dependent because of "reasons", really. The Duchy of Burgundy was fought over in a claim war, and Toulouse submitted at the end of the Albigensian Crusade. The Kingdom of Arles (Burgundy) became part of the HRE in 1032 through succession. If there are supposed to be other independent "blobs", I'm not aware of them.

As to what I think would work best...I'm not sure. There's only so far we can model actual history anyhow, but a land being independent or a vassal is a pretty fundamental difference that the game at least attempts to accommodate. I suppose no-one would really care either way.

No perfect solution at current game mechanics. The closest to reality imho would be this:
- Toulouse de jure part of Kingdom of France, the count a vassal of the king of France but owing no tax nor troops. He just goes about his own business and doesn't give a damn about the petty French king. The king, on the other hand, doesn't want to draw attention of his more powerful vassals.
- the way tributaries are presented in the game wouldn't really fit Toulouse. The count is actually much stronger in terms of land and troops than the king of France c. A.D. 1000. so it wouldn't make much sense for him to be subjugated
- The actual reason why Toulouse "submited" to the king after the Albigensian Crusade was that previous rulers - counts and viscounts - were either decimated or banished and the king "revoked" their land and kept it for himself.

Have to say, I'm happy that the New Millenium bookmark is coming back

 

[loup99]

I agree with Arko and Hrothgar, Toulouse should neither be independent or a tributary, but perhaps the rulers of it could have some penalty to the relation which the French king. The under French rule but France has zero CA is what I would say fits best ingame. The peers/electors of France were the most proeminent vassals, but not sure on them being that as early as 1000 though.

 

[Rylock]

- Toulouse de jure part of Kingdom of France, the count a vassal of the king of France but owing no tax nor troops. He just goes about his own business and doesn't give a damn about the petty French king. The king, on the other hand, doesn't want to draw attention of his more powerful vassals.

But that is not how vassals work. If Toulouse is a vassal of the French king, he pays taxes and gives the king troops (as per his opinion of the king). France having 0 CA to start (which it does) certainly helps prevent the troops supply, though only if I also put in something which artificially keeps the Count of Toulouse's opinion of the king low. If I cared to do that, which I do not.

- The actual reason why Toulouse "submited" to the king after the Albigensian Crusade was that previous rulers - counts and viscounts - were either decimated or banished and the king "revoked" their land and kept it for himself.

Or possibly, in game terms, Toulouse was the target of a crusade (or holy war), which was the Albigensian Crusade...and would result in the count's lands being lost.