Steppe nomads in EU4

[nOxr]

First off, please scrap the horde feature from DW, and remodel the steppe nomads entirely. To have automatic wars just removes the decisions from the player and how fun is it to be a conquering khan when you never get to decide when and what to conquer.

Here are a couple of ideas:

1. Horde governments should have the diplomatic ability to make threatening demands. If the demand is not met, the horde may either declare war or step down. To step down will lead to internal problems and lowered legitimacy.

2. Legitimacy in horde governments could be a measure of how Genghis Khan-like the khan is. As a new khan you would start out at around 50 depending on your stats. To conquer, to have large lands and to have a large army would increase the value, while the opposite would decrease it. It should be a real achievement to reach 100 in a game, and that would unlock powerful decisions and events. If your legitimay drops too low, provinces would rebel or even defect to other khans with higher legitimacy. The system could serve as a mini-competition between all the khans, where the khan with the higher legitimacy would get claims on hordes with lesser khans. With a high degree of defections and rebels it would ensure a dynamic area where a great khan should be able to unite large parts of the step under his rule before he dies. It would also ensure that this empire should fall apart if his heir is not as great.

 

[Kalelovil]

Good ideas, but why should the first one be restricted to horde governments?

 

[kal56]

I like some of the idea but I think the defection thing might not work very well, it could lead to the AI having very odd and hard to defend borders especially if provinces didn't have to border a horde to defect to it. I do like the idea of a legitimacy mechanic forcing the horde ruler to make tribute demands instead of a timer, but I think it might be better if they could declare war as well a making demands. Something like getting a tribute demand met raises legitimacy by 5 but starting a war or raid raises it by 10.

 

[unmerged(206274)]

The horde needs to be remodelled into a HRE style confederation. That's all they were in history anyway.

This will prevent the silly situation of the horde collapsing and English Empires stretching from the black sea to the marches of China. The horde should collapse step by step rather than a dramatic collapse where all its lands get overrun (as per the current model by only having one country representing the whole horde).

You could also introduce player dynamics in order to "lead the horde" similar to becoming emperor although which a much more laid back attitude to BB from civil war compared to the HRE.

Also the economic penalties from colonising poor horde lands is not big enough. Read some of the WC AARs and it's just not right that England can occupy such a large region. Possibly reduce the +forcelimits of colonies?

 

[Marco Dandolo]

I agree, because of the horde system and its consequences (Bohemia reaches the Caspian Sea or even further) I didn't buy DW and stayed with HTTT. I know that Paradox won't include Magna Mundi's mechanichs, but it should go in that direction.

 

[Chamboozer]

It would be nice if they modelled the slave trade, this would give horde raids a real purpose other than grabbing territory and would add a new, critical element to the region.

 

[nOxr]

Good ideas, but why should the first one be restricted to horde governments?

It doesn't have to be restricted. But to make threatening demands would come with severe opinion penalties from civilised countries, which might make it unwise to use for an european country.

I like some of the idea but I think the defection thing might not work very well, it could lead to the AI having very odd and hard to defend borders especially if provinces didn't have to border a horde to defect to it. I do like the idea of a legitimacy mechanic forcing the horde ruler to make tribute demands instead of a timer, but I think it might be better if they could declare war as well a making demands. Something like getting a tribute demand met raises legitimacy by 5 but starting a war or raid raises it by 10.

Exactly! To get a tribute would not raise legitimacy very much, but to start a war and win a war would rasie it more. And regarding defections, it might be best if provinces only can defect to neighbours. If there are no good neighbours, they will declare independence instead. For this purpose, there ought to be a collection of generic horde tags, like eagle horde, black horde.

The horde needs to be remodelled into a HRE style confederation. That's all they were in history anyway.

This will prevent the silly situation of the horde collapsing and English Empires stretching from the black sea to the marches of China. The horde should collapse step by step rather than a dramatic collapse where all its lands get overrun (as per the current model by only having one country representing the whole horde).

You could also introduce player dynamics in order to "lead the horde" similar to becoming emperor although which a much more laid back attitude to BB from civil war compared to the HRE.

Also the economic penalties from colonising poor horde lands is not big enough. Read some of the WC AARs and it's just not right that England can occupy such a large region. Possibly reduce the +forcelimits of colonies?

It would be very cool with a horde federation feature, but I doubt they will be so specific. You make a good point about the economic aspect. There is very little value at all for a civilised country to own a steppe province, and the AI ought to know this somehow. But this goes for the rest of the world too. AI Spain should not take a province in northern scandinavia if they don't have an amazing reason to do so.

 

[ANO1453]

The horde needs to be remodelled into a HRE style confederation. That's all they were in history anyway.

Like daimyos, and the "Leader of the Hordes" as shogun?

 

[nOxr]

Some more ideas:

3. Provinces can be nomadic, with no permanent settlements. In these provinces you are unable to construct buildings, there will be no goods produced and you will get no trade income. You will get census taxes and the province will have twice as high manpower as a regular province, and will provide land tradition (from raiding). The province can be transformed to a regular province by founding a city, which will be similar to founding a colony. You send an agent and after a period of time the province are a regular province. During that time the local revolt risk is higher. In 1444, on the steppe perhaps the capitol provinces would start as regular provinces, plus provinces with a trade hub like Astrakhan. Timurids would have mostly regular provinces. The player will have to chose between the traditional horde lifestyle, that enables a large army, or settle down which enables better tech and developing provinces.

4. Steppe nomad government will enable threats and tributes as diplomatic options. Tributes can be a yearly lumpsum, monthly payment or a yearly manpower, or a combination. Countries with this government type will care less about getting negative opinions from other countries, and will have a horde CB to attack anyone. When they conquer a province they will have the option to 'banish the settled population' which will slowly turn the province into a nomadic province with tartar culture, depending on base tax and number of buildings, and they will get the province after some time outside of peace deals. If you chose not to banish the population the province will be treated in the normal way where you will have to recieve the province in a peace deal to get it. Likewise, settled countries that conquer at nomadic province can take that province outside of peace deals by sending an agent to found a city, which will turn it into a regular province owned by them. If they conquer a regular province from a horde it will be treated in the normal way. Steppe nomads will core nomadic provinces very quickly, but it will take much longer to core regular provinces.

5. Steppe nomad government will start with very low tech in all fields except land. They will have a severe tech penalty, except in land that will get bonuses depending on winning battles and conquering provinces. The mongols were keen learners when it came to warfare. To change government you will have to transform all your provinces into regular provinces, as well as have some tech level and a good khan.

6. Khans will have DNA with higher Military ability and lower Diplomacy/Adm.

7. Some of the uniqeness of steppe hordes can be expressed with the help of special NI's:

Nomadic lifestyle - movement bonus and suffers less attrition

Conquerors - siege and assault bonuses

Horse Masters - discipline bonus and +1 leader shock

8. A Khan with higher legitimacy than a neighbouring Khan will get claims on his land.