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jfjohnny5

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Aug 2, 2008
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  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
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I've seen a couple very robust threads about some of the bigger issues with Surviving Mars at the moment - poor AI leading to issues assigning colonists, the colonists' lack of ability to move between domes easily, etc. However, one I haven't seen - which you might not realize if all your domes are physically close - is that managing the flow of resources between distant locations in an exercise in tedious micro-management (at best).

Let's take a look at this situation: a tale of two domes. Farm Dome is a medium dome with a collection of farms (shocking), and it specializes in producing the colony's food supply. Simple enough, and the game definitely encourages specialization of domes, so it fits with the design philosophy. Mining Dome is on the other side of the map. It was placed there due to access to multiple Metal deposits. Sadly, the metal supply near Farm Dome has been exhausted. Farm Dome produces Food. Mining Dome produces Metal. To a degree, both domes will require both resources. Now, here's the rub...

You can setup a RC Transport with a route to pickup at one location and drop off at another. For a starter, that's it. You can only create a one-way route. You cannot, with one RC Transport, pickup Food at Farm Dome, drop it off at Mining Dome, and then pickup Metal to bring back to Farm Dome. You would need two RC Transports for that to work, and they'd each spend half of their time empty. Logistics 101 tells you that's a poor model. On top of that, if either transport gets to either stop and can't perform the action (nothing to pickup or no space to drop-off) it just... stops. If you want to use RC Transports, your only real choice is to micro-manage the crap out of it. If you (like me) have played Banished, you'll find this type of design absurd in a game which, at it's core, is about resource management. One other issue is that when defining a transport route, it's an all-or-nothing affair. You cannot tell the RC Transport to only carry 20 Food per trip. It will attempt to fully load itself (30 or 45 depending on tech) even if that means the farmers in Farm Dome will starve now.

Now, you might argue, "Just use Flying Transports!" This, however, is an even more inefficient option. For starters, the Flying Transports consume fuel. RC Transports do not. Already we've introduced an extra cost. Additionally, the hubs have their own maintenance. Yet another problem is that the Flying Transports can only carry 3 resources. Yes, it is possible to uncover a tech which doubles that. However, it is still an incredibly expensive option compared to good, old-fashioned, ground-based trucking routes (which is essentially the role an RC Transport should fulfill). Flying Transports are good for moving passengers, and can help supplement a resource supply chain. They shouldn't be relied on to be the backbone, however.

The colonists in Surviving Mars are using robotics to make their lives easier, and to make survival on an utterly hostile planet possible. Robotics is all about automation. Unfortunately, in its current state, Surviving Mars has laughable control of automation - one-way routes which stop working without even a notification. This system, along with others being discussed in other threads, really needs to be fixed. Some ideas on how to do that:

- setup of two-way routes (at a minimum)
- setup of multi-point routes (A > B > C > A) with pickup and dropoff at each (ideally)
- define how many resources to pickup (not just all-or-nothing)
- ability to set minimum stock levels at resource storage points (Farm Dome still needs to feed its farmers...)

Those are the basics. Honestly, I think a lot could be learned from the way Banished handles resource supply chain management, but those few adjustments would at least make the system workable.
 
Pretty much agreed. It feels a bit like Surviving Mars is trying to straddle the line of being hands-off but also involved in the detail. On the one hand we're meant to rely on shuttles to automatically distribute things but sometimes they do it sub-optimally and I'm still not entirely sure what logic they're using to move things. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if we could give a few simple commands but we can't do anything of the sort with shuttles and the rover commands are way to simple to be of any use. So players are stuck in this weird middle ground where the only orders they can give are very micro intensive and not giving orders results in frustrating situations where you're sitting staring at an empty storage plot, a distant full storage plot and some idle shuttles silently praying that eventually whatever decision algorithm will tick over and launch them.

You are absolutely right, there is a huge DLC - shaped hole in the game for transportation. I really think this HAS to be part of the main game.

I can see a lot of DLC potential in this game (up to and including going full Kim Stanley Robinson and allowing terraforming of mars) but there's a lot of things that should be in the base game rather than sold separately. Basic transportation and logistics is one of them.
 
I can see a lot of DLC potential in this game (up to and including going full Kim Stanley Robinson and allowing terraforming of mars) but there's a lot of things that should be in the base game rather than sold separately. Basic transportation and logistics is one of them.

I meant it looks like it is intentionally left out to be sold as DLC later on.
 
I may have done it wrong, but I also noticed that RC transports will not automatically stop to recharge their batteries on auto-routes. So this makes them a complete non-option for me.
 
I may have done it wrong, but I also noticed that RC transports will not automatically stop to recharge their batteries on auto-routes. So this makes them a complete non-option for me.

I forgot to mention that in my original post, but you're 100% right. You're forced to micro-manage them because they won't recharge themselves. Drones will recharge themselves. Shuttles will refuel. RC Transports though... they will gladly run their batteries dry.
 
I've not used auto-routes for the reasons mentioned in this thread but has anyone who has observed if they use tunnels correctly? Because normally rovers will ignore tunnels most of the time and either take routes that are way too long or even impossible.
 
Transport routes it is called and even an oldy like Anno 1602 from 1998 got it right straight from the beginning. No community feedback required, no DLCs. Nobody can tell me that this hassle with supply chains didn't annoy any playtesters or even the devs prior to the games launch.
 
Yes, I have seen vehicles not use tunnels at all Calvax. Apparently they will only use them when there no other way to the destination, such as a cliff or other blocker. Pretty inane really.
As for the supply chain, this is the single most disappointing thing about the game so far, in my opinion at least. I had a similar issue as the OP, by first base was poorly placed and I required another dome pretty quickly. What ensued was a nightmare of non-functioning tunnels, inefficient shuttles and an exercise in frustration trying to get resources shared between two domes quite a bit apart. Once I started needing to move resources and colonists around the whole game ground to a tedious halt. I suspect if I could make do with just one dome the entire game would work a whole lot better.

If I had to describe my opinion it is that the game systems look nice at first but are quickly reveled to be lacking some serious design facets and AI intelligence. All I can say is if this game drops any kind of DLC before fixing these issue and completing the game systems I am finished with Paradox products. I'll put money down that is what will happen though, DLC is just as scummy as another monitisation if you ask me.

Disappointingly shallow game overall. Ok I feel better, rant over :)
 
I've not used auto-routes for the reasons mentioned in this thread but has anyone who has observed if they use tunnels correctly? Because normally rovers will ignore tunnels most of the time and either take routes that are way too long or even impossible.

It depends on the tunnel location in some non-obvious way. I had two tunnels on one of my maps, one of them they took very reliably, the other one they avoided.
 
You are absolutely right, there is a huge DLC - shaped hole in the game for transportation. I really think this HAS to be part of the main game.
No, nope, Nada. This is absolutely not a DLC shaped hole. This is a patch shaped hole for basic systems not working.
 
I do like the idea of not having to micromanage everything, think of it as the overseer, the big picture person. But that said, if you can't get people, materials and resources to where they are needed without ungodly amounts of hand holding there is something wrong.
I like the idea of separate domes have separate needs but the expedition is a sum of it's parts, it silly that logistics just aren't considered.
 
I agree, and while shuttles are... acceptable, they're suboptimal even with both upgrades. RC Transports can't be automated to an acceptable level.

However a bigger problem is that there isn't any motivation to build a bigger colony. Sure, you have the milestone (and maybe achievement?) for 1000 colonists but it seems pretty meaningless. Cities Skylines had some high tier buildings at insane milestones so that you get something exclusive for all the work you put in.
 
However a bigger problem is that there isn't any motivation to build a bigger colony. Sure, you have the milestone (and maybe achievement?) for 1000 colonists but it seems pretty meaningless. Cities Skylines had some high tier buildings at insane milestones so that you get something exclusive for all the work you put in.

And based on your observations in that other post, it seems like deliberately not expanding is the only way to control population. A small colony will still unlock the high level techs, and gain access to all the structures a large colony will. It just might take longer, but there's little reason to actively expand. (I can't believe I'm writing that - who play-tested these design ideas?!)
 
I forgot to mention that in my original post, but you're 100% right. You're forced to micro-manage them because they won't recharge themselves. Drones will recharge themselves. Shuttles will refuel. RC Transports though... they will gladly run their batteries dry.

I've found that surrounding the loading/unloading location depots with cables almost all of the times works as a nice workaround. RC Transports will recharge batteries automatically while loading/unloading resources.
 
I've found that surrounding the loading/unloading location depots with cables almost all of the times works as a nice workaround. RC Transports will recharge batteries automatically while loading/unloading resources.

Actually, they don't - not technically, anyway. They recharge if they're sitting on a cable with nothing else to do, but while actively loading or unloading, they don't recharge.
 
Well, I use shuttles to transport resources to mining bases (they do it on demand - dome needs to be maintained and drone cannot find resources so he creates demand and shuttle fulfils that demand), except food as during dust storm base would starve. And I use transporter to move mined resources back - 2 depots means 360 resources moved on one command so it's micro but not so heavy. And if you have cables around depo, transporter recharges itself first and then unload resources (never tried if it also applies for loading).
 
Sounds easy Svobi111, but the reality is not quite as simple. Shuttles are horribly time and logistically inefficient and the transporter can move 45 units at a very slow surface speed. Not really a problem if a dome or infrastructure is nearby but if it is a tunnel length or more away you are screwed.
I guess if you poured money into building many multiple shuttle bays and micromanaged many multiple transporters then you may have something, but then the game becomes a load/unload the truck simulator.