Support independence needs to change

[wthree]

I know we are approaching the end of the development, and we may never get another EU4 patch let alone content.
But the support for independence mechanics is long overdue for a change.

It's cumbersome, silly, and illogical.

In short, there should be a way to bring back vassals into loyalty without declaring war on the country thats supporting them.
In the current system, the moment a vassal temporarily hovers over 50% BOOM! someone supports their independence, and now all of your vassals are permanently disloyal and there is very little you can do about it.

If you're lucky, they're being supported by a neighbour that you a) can actually declare war on and b) can actually defeat in a war.
But in numerous other cases, you are simply out of luck, and would have to take a huge hit to stability and aggression just to stop your vassals from being disloyal.

Meanwhile for the player, there isnt really much you can do with it.


As someone that enjoys playing with vassals, its such a shame to see another poorly thought out system that encourages savescumming.

 

[jimfinbinlin]

Seconded. Don't have much to add, just - I wish there was a third option, a middle ground between "start a world war because my 100 dev vassal is supported by Ottomans, Russia, and Ming" and "pay 20 prestige to kick the can down the road for a few years".

 

[Dunner]

I actually like it as-is. It can definitely be a headache at times but it helps keep the snowballing in check.

Just have to be more conscious of managing LD

 

[wthree]

I actually like it as-is. It can definitely be a headache at times but it helps keep the snowballing in check.

Just have to be more conscious of managing LD

Hard disagree, its really the opposite.

 

[Dunner]

Hard disagree, its really the opposite.

It's fair to disagree about liking the Support Independence mechanic. But, you're going to have to work pretty hard to make the argument that the current Support Independence mechanic does not help to reduce snowballing.

 

[Nostalgium]

The problem in my mind isn't really support independence on its own, but that over 50% LD is a hard flip from completely loyal to completely rebellious. I feel like it'd be better if it worked more like Estate loyalty does: 30% loyalty (ie. 70% LD) is rebellious, 31-59 is a sort of neutral grey zone, where they will contribute taxes and bonuses, but also generate progress for Disasters, and 60+ is loyal.

For subjects, then, I think that 40% LD and below should be complete loyalty, 41-74 a "grey zone" where they pay taxes, but foreign states can influence them in certain ways to sway them into various treasons - not supporting their overlord in war, pay less tax, etc - and 75% up being the point at which they start seeking Support Independence, stop paying their dues completely, etc.

PS: And vassals of wavering loyalty - even under the current system - should produce a yellow flag warning.

 

[PeterCorless]

Right now it's like, keep it under 50% = Nobody cares

Hit 50%+ = apocalypse now

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's fair to disagree about liking the Support Independence mechanic. But, you're going to have to work pretty hard to make the argument that the current Support Independence mechanic does not help to reduce snowballing.

The help is minimal, given the current solution (declaring on the supporter) is pretty high on the list of a snowballing blobber anyway. At most, it is changing the sequence of declarations.

I also hold that one aspect of this mechanic is bugged right now: if you get a subject to loyal, they can retain support/alliances. As joining war against is *not* consistent with what the word "loyal" implies, that should be tuned.