Supreme Patriarch, what is this, ecclesiastically?

[Gunnarr]

Heard about CK2+ and heard the term "Supreme Patriarch" what exactly is this?

Can anyone who plays this mod, or develops it explain the term, or explain how the churches work in this mod?

 

[FinalLegendZero]

In the earlier start dates of CK2+, the Schism hasn't occured yet, and Catholicism and Orthodoxy are still united as Chalcedonian Christianity. However, as the game goes on, events will fire that will eventually lead to the Schism. The farther along the game is, and the more events that have fired, the more likely it is that the Schism will occur, with the earliest possible date being 950. The rate at which the events fire is influenced by Chalcedonian Moral Authority, with high Authority slowing the event rate and low Authority speeding it up.

The Schism can be prevented entirely by creating a Chalcedonian religious head, known as the Patriarch Supreme. In order to do this, the following conditions must be met:
-An appropriate Patriarch exists (Patriarch of Constantinople following Greek Rites, or Pope following Latin Rites)
-An independent ruler can back either Patriarch (Greek rulers and the Basileus can only back the Patriarch of Constantinople, while Italian and Lombard rulers, the Karling Emperor, and the Kaiser can only back the Pope, and all others can choose either). For an independent ruler to be able to back either Patriarch, they must meet the following conditions:
>is either the Patriarch in question, or is an Emperor with at least 1,500 Prestige and either:
---has the Patriarch in question vassalized
---has a religious head that follows the same rites as the Patriarch in question
>has at least 1,500 piety
>is not at war
>does not have a regency
>has neither the Wicked Priest trait nor the Excommunicated trait
-One of the following must be true:
>The opposing Patriarch doesn't exist
>The opposing Patriarch follows the same rites as the supported Patriarch
>At least two other Patriarchs follow the same rites as the supported Patriarch
If all these conditions are met, then a Patriarch Supreme can be named via decision, which will stop the Schism from happening. The AI can and will make this decision if the requirements are met and an eligable AI ruler arises.

 

[nsinger998]

the Supreme Patriarch is a theoretical position of ultimate authority over all of Christendom.

put simply: 1000AD and earlier was a time when the Pope wasn't as strong as we know him and was simply a patriarch who had slipped from Rome's control. If an empire with latin or greek rites were to control the majority of Petrine Sees(Rome, Antioch, ect) then it could force any existing patriarchs to see the Pope or Patriarch of Constantinople as the supreme patriarch and highest authority.

After 1000AD; The differences between Rome and Constantinople along with the political situation would make it impossible for either side to bow to the other(as in the real world).

(edit: You beat me to it and did it better! )

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

From a historic standpoint (and with a random comparison), the Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch prior to the Schism were pretty much like Charlemagne and his brother Carloman, constantly trying to prove that they were better than each other.... Actually I think they still are even today, but they're trying to fix things now at least. The Patriarch Supreme (which I've never actually seen sadly) could be compared to either an adult separating the two childish religious heads and giving them a time out (if the way it works doesn't result in one of them becoming Patriarch Supreme), or an adult giving one of them a time out and letting the other spend the rest of the day coloring or something (if the victor of the debate becomes Patriarch Supreme)

 

[Gunnarr]

Ok so how is Chalcedonian Christianity set up ?

Does it have no religious head? And does the Papacy or the Ecumenical Patriarch titles have holders or land?

Or is it like Orthodox set up, where there are five patriarchs?

It is already established by the Second Ecumenical Council that the Bishop of Rome has highest honor, and that after Rome, Constantinople is second


So I get confused what a Patriarch Supreme is supposed to represent. Bishop of Rome is already primus inter pares of the Chalcedonian Church. Bishop of Constantinople is already progressed to second in honor by the time of the Second Ecumenical Council.



So if there is declared Rome as Patriarch Supreme, isnt this just not changing anything? Why would this prevent a schism?

And if Constantinople is declared Patriarch Supreme, isnt this just, in theory, Constantinople achiving the primes inter pares, becoming first in honor, and Rome being put as second? I wouldn't see where this would possibly happen, even today Orthodox Church proclaims Rome is still primes inter pares if they were again in communion. The primacy of honor would have no reason to change away from Rome

I am trying to better understand. Is Patriarch Supreme just supposed to be a placeholder name so that chalcedon religion could have a religious head title in game?

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

It's important to note that even in vanilla, the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Constantinople aren't exactly the same. The Ecumenical Patriarch is usually the Patriarch of Constantinople, but if you play as an Orthodox character and look at the map mode unique to the Orthodox branch's religion tab when there's independent dukes or counts, you might notice that there's a cutoff where the religious head goes from "Patriarch of Constantinople" to "Ecumenical Patriarch." The Ecumenical Patriarch is only the Patriarch of Constantinople when he holds the temple, and it's possible for them to be two different people. Because if this, the Ecumenical Patriarch is less an actual member of the Pentarchy and more an overall religious head to the realms without a Patriarch or don't fall into the domain of a Pentarch. The Chalcedonian faith in this mod acts in a similar way in regards to the Patriarch Supreme.

Until the Schism, the Pope is actually a Patriarch for game mechanics and the Ecumenical Patriarch is the Patriarch of Constantinople. While the Pope may or may not have the highest place in the Chalcedonian Church, the he and the Ecumenical Patriarch are still part of the Pentarch system I believe, since it was still hoped to implement the system given structure by Basileus Justinian I, making them more equal than you think, enough so that the Pope's refusal to take part in the Second Council of Constantinople (when he was already residing in Constantinople at the time) and declaration that the Council could not take part without his presence had no real effect on things. The two follow differing ideals of how the Church should be structured and believe that they should be the head of all Christianity. Creating a Patriarch Supreme essentially resolves their rivalry in one or both ways: if the current Pope or Ecumenical Patriarch don't become Patriarch Supreme, it at least decides if the Pope's Latin Rites or the Ecumenical Patriarch's Greek Rites are used by the Chalcedonian Church as a whole.

It's important to note that, just like the events leading up to the Schism in this mod, the events leading up to the Schism in real life were caused by differences in the interpretation of the Pope's primacy. The Orthodox Church views him as merely first among equals while the Catholic Church, and the Pope in general at the time, believed that the primacy meant he alone was the true head of the Christian faith and held authority over all other bishops and Patriarchs.

 

[FinalLegendZero]

if the current Pope or Ecumenical Patriarch don't become Patriarch Supreme

Impossible. The Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople are the only two eligible to be named Patriarch Supreme.

 

[Wandering Sentinel]

When I said that I meant "if it's supposed to give someone else the title since I've never actually seen a Patriarch Supreme be named before"...