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Platonov555

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Feb 7, 2014
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Hello everyone! My first post on Paradox(woo).

I wanted to address an old problem with all Paradox strategy titles - lack of fun in battles. Battles are terribly boxy and simple, not worthy of 21st century strategy titles. You know what I mean - simple pop up window with numbers running through is just BLAH, boooring.

Paradox should take BATTLES to a new level in CK3.

I would suggest trying out old game - Centurion, from back in the 90s. Check out the tactical level of battles - actually units you can directly command.
 
I don't think Paradox will ever change their position on the topic of tactical battles. They don't think including tactical battles mini game goes well with grand strategy genre, and it's also not their style to make all the world pause while some mini-wargame is resolved, and would finally put them in concurrence with big companies games that have far more ressources for graphical representation of those tactical battles, like Total War serie.

That said I think they should be able to add choices and depths to combat without having to developp a tactical battles mini-game, and I'm surprised they never used some ideas about that, suggested to them dozens of times since EU2, like having a choice of battle plans/stances for armies (ie being able to order an army to try to ambush opponents, to seek open battle or delay it as much possible, to adopt more offensive or defensive tactics, to advance as fast possible or prudently, to focus more or less on one type of units giving them bonuses, etc..), with the stances of the two encountering armies determining the battle type (rock paper scissor system, with some battle plans logically getting huge advantages against others, and also influenced by terrain).
 
How much resources can that really take? Simple graphics, simple design. We don't need much. Way it is now is boring, unrealistic and stuck in the 90s.

We need a next step here. We can't be FOREVER stuck with this digit rundown battles, can we?
 
Why all the hate? Don't you WANT fun battles? Way it is now is outdated.

It won't take any resources, give me a break, this isn't Crysis. LOL I could probably make one for them.

Fellas, if you disagree, lets hear it. WHY?
 
Why all the hate? Don't you WANT fun battles? Way it is now is outdated.

It won't take any resources, give me a break, this isn't Crysis. LOL I could probably make one for them.

Fellas, if you disagree, lets hear it. WHY?

You sound like you have absolutely no idea what are you talking about, tactical battles make no sense what so ever for a GSG, it's like complaining that an RTS doesn't have FPS mechanics, IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE THEM!, and no, tactical battles would utterly destroy performance, if you think anything like this is 'simple' then you need to actually start using your brain and stop imagining that things magically un**** themselves.
 
I'm happy to have Total War games to scratch the tactical itch while CK games scratch my politics, intrigue, and getting a horse elected as pope needs.
 
The game's about Grand Strategy, not real-time tactics: it's more about proper preparation of alliances, retinue/troop choices, commanders, and general use of terrain and other means to more or less beat the enemy before the battle started. If you prepare properly, which can be anything from a huge cultural retinue to brilliant commanders with terrain advantage to luring enemy armies around your desert terrain with a small,quick force to wither them away, by the time battle starts the outcome should be more or less decided, barring special circumstances. Historically it often worked the same: finishing off a weakened enemy a few weeks/months after cutting off supply lines was how the Roman Civil wars were won, and the English made excellent use of longbow "retinues" in proper terrain against the less adaptational French forces.

I agree that there could be more flexibility/control over the battle plans you give an army in case of engagement, but that'd still mean you give your commanders the general idea, and they adapt it in actual battle: making it another case of preparation, rather than real-time tactics.

If you really want a more tactical feudal experience, Mount & Blade would be a lot more up your alley for that, and I doubt CK could do a better job than a game which has tactical combat as it's main aspect.
 
Sounds like you want Total War OP.

I would like if a pop up window during the battle gave you a tactical choice or two, which means you could actually win or lose the battle directly, rather than through army comp in advance / RNG. Would make them more engaging, and could lead to some famous victories.

However, I would not be in favour of anything more than that.
 
Sounds like you want Total War OP.

I would like if a pop up window during the battle gave you a tactical choice or two, which means you could actually win or lose the battle directly, rather than through army comp in advance / RNG. Would make them more engaging, and could lead to some famous victories.

However, I would not be in favour of anything more than that.

Sounds interesting, though I'd limit it to battles/flanks the current played character is commanding: you'd still rely on your commanders for most battles, but you would also have more influence over the outcome of liege/ally wars you're commanding in.

EDIT: it'd also add incentive for commanding battles personally, weighted against the risk of death of course
 
Why all the hate? Don't you WANT fun battles? Way it is now is outdated.

It won't take any resources, give me a break, this isn't Crysis. LOL I could probably make one for them.

Fellas, if you disagree, lets hear it. WHY?

They are many factors :

- tactical battles need lots of ressources (developper time for their engine, AI, graphisms, etc...) that need to be taken from somewhere (if we don't want the game to be 100 euros), and so are likely to make other aspects of the game poorer, especially if they want to have tactical battles representation as satisfying and good looking as in other series (while I don't know the exact numbers I think Total War Serie games have easily 5 to 10 times the budget of a Paradox title, if Paradox is no longer a small indie company, they are not Sega or EA)

- lots of battles happen all the time in the world, and simulating them all using a tactical battle engine would use huge processing power (to the point no game in real time ever do that, they rather use some total strength based auto-resolve for every battle not involving the player) ; and if you need to reserve tactical battles system to the ones involving human player(s), it means he would play by different rules compared to the AIs, which is likely to create balance / power creep problems if tactical battles give an advantage to the player (which is ultra likely as developping a good tactical AI is lot of work that rarely succeeds) ; there are some examples of games that developped tactical battle engines only to realise they ruined all the challenge if they allowed the player to use them for all battles (for example Soveignity from Slitherine, that ended reserving the use of tactical engine to battles involving a rare player hero unit, as tactical battles were meaning quasi guaranteed win against their clueless AI, they had to force the player to auto-resolve most battles not using it for their game to keep any difficulty, making absurd the efforts to developp a whole battle engine in the first place)

- speaking of human player(s) what about multiplayer ? if there's a tactical minigame, you'd need to pause the game for all other players when a battle between two is resolved in tactical engine ; or just don't use that tactical engine in multiplayer at all, making its developpment even more a waste

- Paradox player base is used to no tactical battles since the first games they released, it's part of their identity to focus on grand strategy aspects rather than beautiful battles or tactical elements, there's no huge demand for changes in this department (like the negative reactions show)
 
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I didn't hear any constructive counter arguments. Resources? Please, you gotta be joking. Simple 2D graphics in a small box - wowz, so much resources.

What else... "oh, its not Total War!" Who says it is? Make it different, more basic, appropriate for the scale. Like I said - Centurion. Tactical map with matching terrain, randomly generated, based on terrain. Medieval warfare was simple - infantry, cavalry and archers. Throw some events in there, maybe direct tactical decisions, ambushing, flanking etc. It don't have to be Total War, with every single soldier.

You can make tactical battles optional for Players only, while AI would run the usual numbers countdown.
 
What in the world are you talking about - "Paradox player base is used to no tactical battles"?!! We are all tactics and strategy freaks here. We would all love to have battle tactics! WHY NOT? Makes it way more fun.

I dont get the hostility. Tactical battles would make the game BETTER, and more fun. Make it optional, for all the crybabies.
 
You sound like you have absolutely no idea what are you talking about, tactical battles make no sense what so ever for a GSG, it's like complaining that an RTS doesn't have FPS mechanics, IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE THEM!, and no, tactical battles would utterly destroy performance, if you think anything like this is 'simple' then you need to actually start using your brain and stop imagining that things magically un**** themselves.
That's right, you tell him, bucko! Who's the big boy? Yeaaah...
 
A fun thing is you called Paradox battle system outdated above, but keep taking as reference a 1990 game which is mostly remembered as one of the Total War spiritual ancestors (and was actually turn based for the strategic part, like the TW series, reducing a lot the problems to use a battle engine mini-game), and seem to imagine nowaydays people would be fine with Centurion-like tactical battles when Total War actually exists.

And also that you take as "hostility" and "crybabyism" that I just answer to your "WHY?" question.
 
Well, before looking at the "logical" Total Wr style of tactical battle, one could look at "Hegemony Gold: Wars of Ancient Greece" tactical battle.
Sure, it requires more work but not to the point of TW case and still allow time to go by the way we are used to.

After, to tell the truth, I would still prefer not to have the battle like that and keep the very high level representation.
 
I really want something between Total Wars and grand strategy. Something where i give orders such as "6th Division, capture that hill". I hate repetitive micro managing of my soldiers. I love micro managing my army composition, but i don't want to change that all the time, i just want to do it once and then all my armies will follow that composition if they are trained and equipped properly.

But it would not work for Crusader Kings.
 
Knights of honor game may be what your are after, you have no chance of seeing this in CK.