Tech

[Johan Elisson]

With the help of the nowadays absent drbolo, SilentLawyer and some others, I've scripted some trees and this is the progress:

Infantry (original Infantry tree) - almost finished
Motor/Armor (Armor) - almost finished
Electronics (Electronics) - working on
Industry (Industry) - Nothing
Gas (Rocketry) - Nothing
Propaganda/Social? (Nuclear) - Nothing
Naval (Naval) - nothing
Submarine (Submarine) - nothing
Artillery (Artillery) - almost finished
Heavier-than-Air? (Heavy Aircraft) - Nothing
Lighter-than-Air? (Light Aircraft) - Nothing
Land Doctrine (Land Doctrine) - working on
Naval Doctrine (Naval Doctrine) - nothing
Air Doctrine (Air Doctrine) - working on

There is a proposal to make the nuclear tech tree a tree for social inventions and such that don't fit into other trees. May include things like "women are allowed to work in factories, +15% IC", and such.

The aircraft trees will (probably) be divided into aircraft (heavier-than-air), and zeppelins (lighter-than-air), where the later will include barrage and observation ballons which aren't units, but that effects land combat.

I would like some help on this.

/Elisson

 

[unmerged(11486)]

Elisson: I will work on the naval tech tree.

An idea:
Pre-dreadnoughts -> dreadnoughts -> heavy dreadnoughts

Sub techs:
Reciprocating turbines, guns from 8"-16", optics, radios, etc...

Steele

 

[brandnew70x7]

If you ask me.. armour shouldn't even be included, it didn't play a vital role until much much later, and was generally too slow. Include armour and it stays a WWII game if you ask me. Unless they are very very slow.

 

[unmerged(11486)]

You can have a lot of expensive techs to lead to a slow moving beast thats vulnerable to almost everything. Better would probably be to give bonuses to infantry units for armor research.

Steele

 

[Johan Elisson]

Steele, take a look at drbolos posts in the original thread, he had some ideas on naval tech and units.

Motor/Armor tree consists of cavalry improvements, then over to motorized improvements, then over to armor. To leave armor out is idiotic. If the war would have lasted a year longer or two, I think they could have played a major role at breaking the trench warfare. Look at original HoI, it includes nuclear submarines, which wasn't even a prototype when WWII ended. Why leave something that really existed during WWI out?

I will post the tech trees under work tomorrow.

/Elisson

 

[brandnew70x7]

I think the "Propaganda" should be Civil Works, advanced power, new water treatment, etc.

 

[unmerged(11486)]

Naval Tech

Battleships
[]Pre-Dreadnought Battleship (unit)
[]steel armor
[]bulkheads (improve defense)
[]compartmented hulls (improve defense)
[]basic optic sighting systems
[]individual sights (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]range-finders (improve attack vs. large ships)
[]improved optics
[]centralized fire control (improve attack)
[]reinforced breeches
[]Heavier guns (10"+) (improve attack)
[]improved secondaries
[]heavy secondary weapons (improve attack)
[]light secondary weapons (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]steam turbine
[]colliers (increase range)
[]intermediate range ships (increase range)
[]high speed turbines (increase speed)
[]damage control
[]damage control training (improve defense)
[]seperate damage control parties (improve defense)
[]surface-ship torpedoes
[]simple torpedoes (improve attack)
[]Dreadnought Battleship (depending on the start date, an event for the first to reach this) (unit)
[]hardened steel armor
[]thickened armor plate (improve defense)
[]Special Treatment Steel (improve defense)
[]advanced optics
[]anti-aircraft sights (improve anti-air defense)
[]fire correction (improve attack)
[]strengthened barrels
[]lengthened barrels
[]heaviest guns (16"+) (improve attack)
[]advanced secondaries
[]heavy secondary weapons (improve attack)[/i]
[]quick-firing guns (improve attack)
[]light secondary weapons (improve attack vs. small ships, improve anti-air defense)[/i]
[]quick-firing guns (improve attack vs. small ships, improve anti-air defense)
[]oil-fired engines
[]oilers (increase range)
[]long range ships (increase range)
[]high-speed turbines (increase speed)
[]advanced torpedoes (improve attack)
[]Battlecruiser (unit)

The Bold represents the first level of the tree, and italics the third, if it exists.

For other ship classes, these can also be used, but with differentiation between names and certain details.

Steele

 

[unmerged(11486)]

Cruisers
[]Pre-Dreadnought Cruiser (unit)
[]steel armor
[]bulkheads (improve defense)
[]compartmented hulls (improve defense)
[]basic optic sighting systems
[]individual sights (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]range-finders (improve attack vs. large ships)
[]improved optics
[]centralized fire control (improve attack)
reinforced breeches
[]Heavier guns (6"+) (improve attack)
[]improved secondaries
[]heavy secondary weapons (improve attack)
[]light secondary weapons (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]steam turbine
[]colliers (increase range)
[]intermediate range ships (increase range)
[]high-speed turbines (increase speed)
[]Scouting Cruiser (unit)
[]damage control
[]damage control training (improve defense)
[]seperate damage control parties (improve defense)
[]surface-ship torpedoes
[]simple torpedoes (improve attack)
[]Dreadnought Cruiser (unit)
[]hardened steel armor
[]thickened armor plate (improve defense)
[]Special Treatment Steel (improve defense)
[]advanced optics
[]anti-aircraft sights (improve anti-air defense)
[]fire correction (improve attack)
[]strengthened barrels
[]lengthened barrels
[]heaviest guns (12"+) (improve attack)
[]advanced secondaries
[]heavy secondary weapons (improve attack)
[]quick-firing guns (improve attack)
[]light secondary weapons (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]quick-firing guns (improve attack vs. small ships, improve anti-air defense)
[]oil-fired engines
[]oilers (increase range)
[]long range ships (increase range)
[]high-speed turbines (increase speed)
[]advanced torpedoes (improve attack)
[]Heavy Cruiser (unit)

Steele

 

[unmerged(11486)]

Destroyers
[]Pre-Dreadnought Destroyer (unit)
[]steel armor
[]bulkheads (improve defense)
[]compartmented hulls (improve defense)
[]basic optic sighting systems
[]individual sights (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]range-finders (improve attack vs. large ships)
[]improved optics
[]centralized fire control (improve attack)
[]reinforced breeches
[]Heavier guns (3"+) (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]improved secondaries
[]heavy secondary weapons (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]light secondary weapons (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]steam turbine
[]colliers (increase range)
[]intermediate range ships (increase range)
[]high speed turbines (increase speed)
[]anti submarine warfare
[]Destroyer Escort (unit)
[]damage control
[]damage control training (improve defense)
[]seperate damage control parties (improve defense)
[]surface ship torpedoes
[]simple torpedoes (improve attack)
[]torpedo boats (unit)
[]Dreadnought Destroyer (unit)
[]hardened steel armor
[]thickened armor plate (improve defense)
[]Special Treatment Steel (improve defense)
[]advanced optics
[]anti-aircraft sights (improve anti-air defense)
[]fire correction (improve attack)
[]strengthened barrels
[]lengthened barrels
[]heaviest guns (6"+) (improve attack)
[]advanced secondaries
[]heavy secondary weapons (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]quick-firing guns (improve attack vs. small ships, improve anti-air defense)
[]light secondary weapons (improve attack vs. small ships)
[]quick-firing guns (improve attack vs. small ships, improve anti-air defense)
[]oil-fired engines
[]oilers (increase range)
[]long range ships (increase range)
[]high speed turbines (increase speed)
[]advanced torpedoes (improve attack)
[]Advanced Destroyer (unit)

Steele

 

[unmerged(11486)]

Transport Ships (unit)
[]armed merchantmen (improve defense)
[]steam turbine
[]colliers (improve range)
[]intermediate range ships (increase range)
[]high speed turbines (increase speed)
[]damage control
[]damage control training (improve defense)
[]seperate damage control parties (improve defense)
[]hardened steel armor
[]thickened armor plate (improve defense)
[]special treatment steel (improve defense)
[]oil-fired engines
[]oilers (increase range)
[]long range ships (increase range)
[]high speed turbines (increase speed)

Steele

 

[unmerged(11486)]

Sorry about the formatting. I couldn't get my spacing to work right. Does anyone have any additions or suggestions?

Steele

 

[Aetius]

The development needs some "backdating", there were countries with old ships and very old ships, so the tree should include these, to avoid too early development for non-majors.
These are just proposals so please bear with me...

Engine development should be something like this:
Engines:
->Reciprocating engine
->->Simple expansion
->->Compound expansion
->->Triple expansion
->Steam Turbine
The Triple expansion engines were still in use in WW2 era.

I have been thinking a bit about the turrets as well, AFAIK the turretesque things developed were:
->Casemates
->(Monitor-style) (not ocean going)
->Barbette-style
->Closed turret

AFAIK Casemates were still present in some second line units in WW1, at least in the Japanese fleet.

Armour:
->Cast Iron Armour
->Sandwich Armour
->Compound Armour
->Nickel steel Armour
->Harveyized armour (not sure of the non-american term for this)
->Krupp Armour

Krupp is still used AFAIK

Torpedoes:
->spar torpedo
->mobile spar torpedo
->self-propelled torpedo "automobile torpedo"
->->torpedo gyroscope

 

[Johan Elisson]

Looks great!

I also propose that you keep the "primary level" down to maybe 6-8 levels (that is how much we have for the other trees, and that should also be enough.) Just place more techs in the same primary level.

/Elisson

 

[Johan Elisson]

I'll post the tech trees one by one now.

Abbreviations

Benefits
sft = soft attack
hrd = hard attack
gnd = ground defense
dst = desert attack and defense
jgl = jungle attack and defense
spl = supply consumtion
rvr = river attack
org = organization
gde = ground defense efficiency
act = activate
dea = deactivate
dtt = detection them
dtu = detection us
itt = intelligence them
itu = intelligence us
srl = surprise land

Units
inf = infantry
cav = cavalry
mnt = mountain
mar = marine
frt = fortress
mil = militia
gre = grenadier
mot = motorized
arm = armor
arm# = armor model #
eng = engineer brigade

How to
sft+1inf/cav&gnd+1inf/mnt+2frt means soft attack increased by one for infantry and cavalry, and ground defense increased by one for infantry and mountain, and by two for fortress.

/Elisson

 

[Johan Elisson]

Infantry tech tree				pre-req			benefit

> 1000 - Modern Firearms			-			<
1001 - Bolt-Action Rifle			none			sft+1inf/mnt/mar/gre&gnd+1inf/mnt/mar/frt/mil/gre
1002 - Field Fortification			none			gnd+1inf/mnt/mar/gre
1003 - Modern Machinegun			1001			sft+1inf/cav/gre&gnd+1inf/cav/frt/gre
1004 - Modern Grenade				none			gnd+1inf/mnt/mar/frt/mil/gre
1005 - Rifle Grenade				1004			gnd+1inf/mnt/mar/gre
> 1100 - Pre-War Innovations			-			<
1101 - Heavy Machinegun				1003			gnd+1inf/frt/gre
1102 - Military Railroad Battalion		industry?		speed/supply?
1103 - Barbed Wire Defence			1002 1003		gnd+1mnt/mar+2inf/gre+3frt
1104 - Light Mortar				1005			sft+1inf/cav/mnt/mar/gre
1105 - Canned Food and Water Distillation	industry?		dst+20inf/cav/mnt/mar/mil/gre&jgl+20inf/cav/mnt/mar/mil/gre
> 1200 - Early War Innovations			-			<
1201 - Light Machinegun				1003			sft+1inf/cav/mnt/mar/gre
1202 - Medium Mortar				1104			gnd+1inf/frt/gre
1203 - Steel Helmet				industry?		gnd+1inf/mnt/mar/frt/mil/gre
1204 - Modern Depot System			none			spl-0.2inf/mnt/mar/frt/mil/gre
1205 - Modern Trench System			1003 1103 3004		gnd+1inf/mnt/gre+2frt
> 1300 - Mid-War Innovations			-			<
1301 - Gas Mask					gas?			gnd+1inf/mnt/mar/frt/mil/gre
1302 - Antitank Rifle				none			hrd+1inf/mnt/mar/gre
1303 - Portable Pontoon Bridge			none			rvr+10eng
> 1400 - Late War Innovations			-			<
1401 - Flamethrower				industry?		sft+1eng
1402 - Stormtrooper Unit			1201 1203 1401		sft+1inf/gre
1403 - Submachinegun				1201			sft+1inf/cav/mnt/mar/gre
1404 - Specialized Assault Gear			1402 1403		sft+2eng

I would like suggestions on this tree. Techs to add? Maybe another level, because this is pretty short. Maybe more benefits for engineers earlier? Add or remove benefits for certain units? This is not the final, we don't even know if it is realistic to have those numbers, and so on, since we can't even playtest the game

/Elisson

 

[Johan Elisson]

Cavalry/Motorized/Armor tech tree		pre-req			benefit

> 2000 - Cavalry Innovations			-			<
2001 - Bolt-Action Carbine			1001			sft+1cav&gnd+1cav
2002 - Modern Load-Bearing Saddle		none			sft+1cav&gnd+1cav
2003 - Animal Gas Mask				1301			gnd+1cav
> 2100 - Military Vehicle Innovations		-			<
2101 - Internal Combustion Engine		industry?		none?
2102 - Motor Transportation			2101			act+mot?
2103 - Military Truck and Utility Vehicle	2101 2102		none?
> 2200 - Early Armored Vehicle			-			<
2201 - Basic Armored Car			1003 2103 11204		???
2202 - Motorized Earth Mover			2103			???
2203 - Vehicle Maintenance Battalion		2103 11204		???
2204 - Intermediate Armored Car			1101 2201		???
> 2300 - Tank Prototype				-			<
2301 - Tank Gear				2103?			none
2302 - Tank Suspension				2103?			none
2303 - Gasoline Tank Engine			2101			none
2304 - Riveted Armor				industry?		none?
2305 - Tank Prototype Tests			2204 2301/2/3/4 11304	none
2306 - Tank Production				2305			none?
> 2400 - Basic Tank Development			-			<
2401 - Tank MG Armament				1101			none
2402 - Female Tank Prototype Tests		2306 2401		none
2403 - Female Tank				2402			act+arm0
2404 - Tank Gun Armament			14306			none
2405 - Male Tank Prototype Tests		2306 2404		none
2406 - Male Tank				2405			act+arm1
2407 - Basic Optical Sights			2306			sft+1arm?
2408 - Rotating Turret				2306			gnd+1arm?
2409 - Advanced Armored Car			2204 2304 2307 2408	???
> 2500 - Modern Tank Development		-			<
2501 - Crew Coordination			2306 3301		gnd+1arm?
2502 - Armored Scout Tactics			2409			dtu+5
2503 - Light Tank Prototype Tests		2306 2404 2501 2502	dea+2506/2509
2504 - Light Tank				2407 2408 2503 14406	act+arm2
2505 - Armored Exploitation Tactics		2409			sft+1arm
2506 - Cruiser Tank Prototype Tests		2306 2404 2501 2505	dea+2503/2509
2507 - Cruiser Tank				2407 2408 2506 14505	act+arm3
2508 - Armored Assault Tactics			2409			hrd+1arm
2509 - Land Battleship Prototype Tests		2306 2404 2501 2508	dea+2503/2506
2510 - Land Battleship				2407 2408 2509 14506	act+arm4
> 2600 - Advanced Tank Development		-			<
2601 - Welded Armor				2304			gnd+1arm?
2602 - Improved Optical Sights			2407			sft+1arm&hrd+1arm?
2603 - Diesel Tank Engine			2303			???
2604 - Sloped Armor				2601			gnd+1arm?
2605 - Armor Skirts				2601			gnd+1arm?

This tree has probably got enough techs, but I haven't figured out pre-reqs and benefits for all of them. Some, like the armored cars, should probably benefit to motorized or some early type of armor division. I've not placed any benefits for motorized anywhere, just to let you know. The light tank, cruiser tank and land battleship deactivates each other to create a kind of "national doctrine" where you choose to put light, medium or heavy tanks into battle.

More tech trees coming tonight.

/Elisson

 

[StephenT]

Steelehc - can I offer some suggestions on the naval tech tree?

Advanced optics/centralised fire control: I'd suggest moving this higher up, perhaps even above the basic dreadnought; it was a fairly late development.

Have you considered giving different options for the ships' guns? (eg 11" dreadnought, 12" dreadnought), with your choice cancelling out the other choices?

I'm not sure about making "battlecruiser" the very top of the tech tree: these came in at the same time as dreadnoughts. They were also something of a dead end, tech-wise. How about giving the player the option, after the basic dreadnought, of developing either superdreadnoughts (guns, armour) or battlecruisers (speed)?

To get the dreadnought tech should, I think, also require researching an expensive Naval Doctrine first ("all-big-gun theory")

Suggestions for unit names:
Battleships: - Pre-Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Superdreadnought (and/or Fast Battleship)
Cruisers - Early Cruiser, Protected Cruiser, Armoured Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser
Destroyers - Gunboat, Torpedo Boat, Destroyer

Stephen

 

[Aetius]

Torpedo boats are a completely different tech....

 

[Aetius]

Re aircraft:
There are some basic engines techs that spring to mind:
->Rotary Engines
->light Radial Engines
->light Inline Engines

Please check this site for info:
http://www.aviation-history.com/index.html

Esp:
http://www.aviation-history.com/theory/airship/airship.htm

 

[StephenT]

Originally posted by Aetius
Torpedo boats are a completely different tech....

Surely in this period a destroyer was just a larger, more seaworthy torpedo boat with a few extra guns mounted?

Stephen