I'm curious. But will the African leaders be accurate? Were there really any great African (African as in black) military commanders during EU2's 400 years? I've never heard of any...
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there were very few, but not a lot.... there is Shaka king of the Zulus, but I think Paradox may have already included him in the latest version in the Zulu leader file...but I will discuss that in the separate African thread
You have the warrior-king `Alî Ber of the Songhai who opposed their former Mali rulers and conquered Timbuktu abt, 1464 and sacked the thought impregnable fortified city of Jenné. `Alî Ber is off course included allready.
cool, good job Havard in starting this folder....
I am looking into mods for the Zanj, the Mali empires (there are three of them) and possibly the Zulu
I uncovered one little dirty secret already:
in EU II version 1.00 there is a Zulu monarch file, but there is no Zulu leader file.
However, if you take a peek inside the Zulu monarch file, you will see that the great legendary Shaka Zulu is listed as both a monarch *and* a military leader.
And WOW, Shaka is one impressive SOB!
historical monarch = "Shaka"
DIP = 8
MIL = 9
ADM = 8
maneuver = 5
fire = 5
shock = 5
1816 to 1828
For those unfamiliar with British colonial history.... the Zulu handed the British their worst defeat in Africa during the entire 19th century.
edited for historical accuracy
I have good historical leads now that Shaka had a couple of capable "generals" who might be worthwhile additions to the Zulu roster. I will need to do research....
I am looking into mods for the Zanj, the Mali empires (there are three of them) and possibly the Zulu
I uncovered one little dirty secret already:
in EU II version 1.00 there is a Zulu monarch file, but there is no Zulu leader file.
However, if you take a peek inside the Zulu monarch file, you will see that the great legendary Shaka Zulu is listed as both a monarch *and* a military leader.
And WOW, Shaka is one impressive SOB!
historical monarch = "Shaka"
DIP = 8
MIL = 9
ADM = 8
maneuver = 5
fire = 5
shock = 5
1816 to 1828
For those unfamiliar with British colonial history.... the Zulu handed the British their worst defeat in Africa during the entire 19th century.
edited for historical accuracy
I have good historical leads now that Shaka had a couple of capable "generals" who might be worthwhile additions to the Zulu roster. I will need to do research....
Last edited:
I don't think there is any record of Shaka fighting the British - the first British settlements in Natal actually had his support. Shaka's battles were against local Nguni opposition. Even the conflict with the Boers was post Shaka.
I assume you are refering to Isandlwana. That was 50 years after Shaka's death, the Zulu king at the time was Cetshwayo.
you're right.... I was referring to Isandlwana and Hlobane as the Zulu massacres against the British
I stand corrected.... cetshwayo not shaka
I stand corrected.... cetshwayo not shaka
Zulus
Are the Zulus represented as starting in Natal, or is the nation of Zimbabwe supposed to represent the Zulu? If I'm not mistaken, the current Zulu population in present day Zimbabwe did not get there until after Shaka... indeed, they were fleeing the reign of Shaka, led there by Mzilikazi or some. The builders of Great Zimbabwe were pretty much gone by the time the first Portuguese came wandering along the coasts. This is 'off the cuff', having read some books on the region some time ago...
Are the Zulus represented as starting in Natal, or is the nation of Zimbabwe supposed to represent the Zulu? If I'm not mistaken, the current Zulu population in present day Zimbabwe did not get there until after Shaka... indeed, they were fleeing the reign of Shaka, led there by Mzilikazi or some. The builders of Great Zimbabwe were pretty much gone by the time the first Portuguese came wandering along the coasts. This is 'off the cuff', having read some books on the region some time ago...
Hmmm. Wonder how Shaka got left out of the leader file? I'll bring this up in the beta forum.
However, it looks like most of the rest of the African nations have a fair selection of leaders (I am going on my beta version, not the release version). Zimbabwe, Kongo, Songhai, and Ashante have them at the least after a quick look-through.
No, Zimbabwe is not the Zulu; the Zulu only appear in later scenarios in Natal. There has been a bit of discussion on the beta forum about how to get the Zulu and Xhosa to pop up in the proper area in if one doesn't start in one of these later scenerios...
However, it looks like most of the rest of the African nations have a fair selection of leaders (I am going on my beta version, not the release version). Zimbabwe, Kongo, Songhai, and Ashante have them at the least after a quick look-through.
No, Zimbabwe is not the Zulu; the Zulu only appear in later scenarios in Natal. There has been a bit of discussion on the beta forum about how to get the Zulu and Xhosa to pop up in the proper area in if one doesn't start in one of these later scenerios...
New Nations in Horn of Africa
I wasn't able to find out much about them, but apparently in the 13th and 14th century there was a Muslim state called Adal. Their capitol was Zelia, and their center of power was around modern day Djibouti. At their height in 1550, they controled all of nothern Somalia, half of Eretria, and a good deal of inland Ethiopia.
Anyway, I would give them at Afars and Issas at the start of the game. Hopefully, if they are around, it will give Ethiopia something to do besides sit there.
And while we are at it, the Ethiopian geography is all wrong for this time period. Ethiopia didn't have that shape until the 17th or 18th century. They should still have Keren, and not have Arse or Oagden yet. Bale was in contention during the period, it could go either way.
I also think there should be a Pagan Omoro Kingdom in Harage, Arsi, and maybe Bale, as well as a Muslim Somali state in Somalia, Mugduh, Mogadisco, and Ogden. These were not very centralized states during this time period (especially the Somalis), but they did make military advances against Ethiopia, and they deserve to exist at least as much, if not more, than 'nations' like Lenape and Dakota. Though, I realize that there are tons of requests for new nations (I can think of at least one other I want in South America), so my preference goes to inclusion of Adal, then Omoro, then Somalia, in that order.
Honestly, there ought to be *no* unclaimed provinces in the horn during this time period. This was a highly civilized part of Africa for thousands of years, much more so than the Sahel, which is now chock full of states. Hell, this area has been civilized consistantly longer than Scandanavia, and yet that region seems totally full of nations. Just like in India, if Europe wants to colonize these areas, they should have to conquor them. Also, it will make playing a regional game in the horn of Africa fun.
I wasn't able to find out much about them, but apparently in the 13th and 14th century there was a Muslim state called Adal. Their capitol was Zelia, and their center of power was around modern day Djibouti. At their height in 1550, they controled all of nothern Somalia, half of Eretria, and a good deal of inland Ethiopia.
Anyway, I would give them at Afars and Issas at the start of the game. Hopefully, if they are around, it will give Ethiopia something to do besides sit there.
And while we are at it, the Ethiopian geography is all wrong for this time period. Ethiopia didn't have that shape until the 17th or 18th century. They should still have Keren, and not have Arse or Oagden yet. Bale was in contention during the period, it could go either way.
I also think there should be a Pagan Omoro Kingdom in Harage, Arsi, and maybe Bale, as well as a Muslim Somali state in Somalia, Mugduh, Mogadisco, and Ogden. These were not very centralized states during this time period (especially the Somalis), but they did make military advances against Ethiopia, and they deserve to exist at least as much, if not more, than 'nations' like Lenape and Dakota. Though, I realize that there are tons of requests for new nations (I can think of at least one other I want in South America), so my preference goes to inclusion of Adal, then Omoro, then Somalia, in that order.
Honestly, there ought to be *no* unclaimed provinces in the horn during this time period. This was a highly civilized part of Africa for thousands of years, much more so than the Sahel, which is now chock full of states. Hell, this area has been civilized consistantly longer than Scandanavia, and yet that region seems totally full of nations.
Just like in India, if Europe wants to colonize these areas, they should have to conquor them. Also, it will make playing a regional game in the horn of Africa fun.
The Somali area was dominated by Oman during the time period, especially Mogadiscio. Maybe we should start the game with Omani TPs from the Horn to the Zanj border?
Adding Adal is a cool idea, though...
Adding Adal is a cool idea, though...
Re: Zulus
Zulus are their own tiny country starting in Natal.
and Zimbabwe are their own "Greater Zimbabwe" (it's at least 6 provinces or more!) which is playable starting in the 1492 scenario
Zimbabwe has a leader file already.
Zulus have a "missing" leader file, even tho we know that Shaka is supposed to be a military leader (by looking into the monarch file)
Zulus are their own tiny country starting in Natal.
and Zimbabwe are their own "Greater Zimbabwe" (it's at least 6 provinces or more!) which is playable starting in the 1492 scenario
Zimbabwe has a leader file already.
Zulus have a "missing" leader file, even tho we know that Shaka is supposed to be a military leader (by looking into the monarch file)
this would be a nice idea if the Zulu and Xhosa and others would be allowed to pop up as African revolters (assuming their territory is already conqured)
Re: New Nations in Horn of Africa
Well, here's the thing: Adal and the other muslim states of Ethiopia existed, and during one period they conquered many parts of Abyssinian Christian Ethiopia. But that was all based on one leader Gran, "the Left Handed" who from 1520s to 1543 conquered Ethiopia and had the emperor running. Once he died, with the help of ol' Chris Da Gama, it all fell apart. From there, the real threat was the Oromo who first swamped Adal and the other muslim emirates of the region, and then made serious headway into a disrupted (from Gran's jihad) Abyssinia. Given these extraordinary circumstances, I don't really see how you put Adal into the game. It's too small, far too small to put into the game. And yet, as you said, for that brief period, under that one extraordinary leader, they had huge influence. And event might be nice, or something of that nature, but I don't see it as a presence on a map. Far too small, and unorganized. There were many emirates in the region, and they rarely if ever cooperated.
Historically, the Solomonic Dynasty had a heyday in the 14th and 15th centuries: for most of the period the muslim states you talk about were really totally vassalized and constantly raided and harrassed by the Solomonic emperors. Were they conquered? No. But they were almost totally dominated by the Ethiopian highland groups (which were incredibly densely populated, compared to the lowland muslim emirates. That's what makes Ahmed Gran so exceptional, in the sense of defeating the Ethipians (with Turkish aid).
What there can be no question of is that there should be some sort of event for Ethiopia involving the Oromo migrations of the late 1500s; it had a huge impact on the weakened Ethiopian state. It is also an interesting mystery in terms of history: why did the Oromo people migrate at this time? There is a lot of speculation about a ecological disaster, but little evidence has been found to support that fact. There is no way you could support an Oromo state in the game. They were obviously NOT a state. They ran by the gada system of hierarchy and were separated into different family groups. There was no interlinking between any of the groups. There was absolutely no central state.
On to your other points: Again, the Somalis were not a state. Period. They were, for the most part, still are, pastoral peoples who migrate to the Haude in Ogaden. I 100% agree that Ogaden should not be in the posession of Ethiopia's Solomonic Dynasty. So I agree there. But at the same time, I honestly can't think of a group that is more suitable for generic "native" status, with colonization possible and the area left open than the Somalis. They are a totally pastoral people. Today they are STILL one of the most pastoral people remaining, besides perhaps the current day country of Mongolia.
I say all this because I happen to be taking an upper-level Ethiopian+Horn history class at the moment, am writing a paper on Solomonic-Jesuit relations in this 1500s-mid 1600s time period, so its all very fresh in my mind. So, saying all that, here are my counter recommendations about Ethiopia and the horn:
1: there should absolutely not be any state of Oromo origin. These people were not a state. Of that much is certain. If you want to read more about them, from a contemporary source, read Bahrey's "History of the Galla," where he describes their society and social structure, and the fear that the Oromo migrations were causing in the weakened Ethiopian Solomonic Dynasty. there should be some sort of event about the Oromo for the Ethiopians, however, since this is a very crucial part of the history of the period.
2: I would say, less strenously than the Oromo, there should not be a state of Adal or any other small lowland Muslim sultanate. They're too small, constantly in an almost vassal situation with the Ethiopian kingdom, and make very little impact in the area besides the one instance of Ahmed Gran and his jihad. It would be a great event, IMO. Gran did have an impact, but the tiny muslim sultanates he came from did not.
3: No Somali state. I'd say that the Somalis meet the definition of those peoples who are represented by generic "tribes," and not a state. They are a totally pastoral people, not organized at all at this time, no central anything in any way and not worthy of state status.
4: Don't give the Ethiopians Ogaden. I don't have the map right in front of me right now, but if the Ogaden map piece roughly corresponds to the Ogaden of the modern day (which contains the Haude, a vital area for Somali pastoralists and their transhumance patterns), then it shouldn't be in Ethiopian possession. The Solomonic dynasty didn't exert much control on the VERY sparse populations of that far east.
In sum, there should be unclaimed provinces in the lowlands of the horn, with generic natives to represent Somali pastoralists. So those are my recommendations. It would be a mistake to just include areas where people live who call themselves one name, yet have no central anything and are just a diverse group of tribes and things that have no connection a nation, and make them into something on the EU2 map.
Well, here's the thing: Adal and the other muslim states of Ethiopia existed, and during one period they conquered many parts of Abyssinian Christian Ethiopia. But that was all based on one leader Gran, "the Left Handed" who from 1520s to 1543 conquered Ethiopia and had the emperor running. Once he died, with the help of ol' Chris Da Gama, it all fell apart. From there, the real threat was the Oromo who first swamped Adal and the other muslim emirates of the region, and then made serious headway into a disrupted (from Gran's jihad) Abyssinia. Given these extraordinary circumstances, I don't really see how you put Adal into the game. It's too small, far too small to put into the game. And yet, as you said, for that brief period, under that one extraordinary leader, they had huge influence. And event might be nice, or something of that nature, but I don't see it as a presence on a map. Far too small, and unorganized. There were many emirates in the region, and they rarely if ever cooperated.
Historically, the Solomonic Dynasty had a heyday in the 14th and 15th centuries: for most of the period the muslim states you talk about were really totally vassalized and constantly raided and harrassed by the Solomonic emperors. Were they conquered? No. But they were almost totally dominated by the Ethiopian highland groups (which were incredibly densely populated, compared to the lowland muslim emirates. That's what makes Ahmed Gran so exceptional, in the sense of defeating the Ethipians (with Turkish aid).
What there can be no question of is that there should be some sort of event for Ethiopia involving the Oromo migrations of the late 1500s; it had a huge impact on the weakened Ethiopian state. It is also an interesting mystery in terms of history: why did the Oromo people migrate at this time? There is a lot of speculation about a ecological disaster, but little evidence has been found to support that fact. There is no way you could support an Oromo state in the game. They were obviously NOT a state. They ran by the gada system of hierarchy and were separated into different family groups. There was no interlinking between any of the groups. There was absolutely no central state.
On to your other points: Again, the Somalis were not a state. Period. They were, for the most part, still are, pastoral peoples who migrate to the Haude in Ogaden. I 100% agree that Ogaden should not be in the posession of Ethiopia's Solomonic Dynasty. So I agree there. But at the same time, I honestly can't think of a group that is more suitable for generic "native" status, with colonization possible and the area left open than the Somalis. They are a totally pastoral people. Today they are STILL one of the most pastoral people remaining, besides perhaps the current day country of Mongolia.
I say all this because I happen to be taking an upper-level Ethiopian+Horn history class at the moment, am writing a paper on Solomonic-Jesuit relations in this 1500s-mid 1600s time period, so its all very fresh in my mind. So, saying all that, here are my counter recommendations about Ethiopia and the horn:
1: there should absolutely not be any state of Oromo origin. These people were not a state. Of that much is certain. If you want to read more about them, from a contemporary source, read Bahrey's "History of the Galla," where he describes their society and social structure, and the fear that the Oromo migrations were causing in the weakened Ethiopian Solomonic Dynasty. there should be some sort of event about the Oromo for the Ethiopians, however, since this is a very crucial part of the history of the period.
2: I would say, less strenously than the Oromo, there should not be a state of Adal or any other small lowland Muslim sultanate. They're too small, constantly in an almost vassal situation with the Ethiopian kingdom, and make very little impact in the area besides the one instance of Ahmed Gran and his jihad. It would be a great event, IMO. Gran did have an impact, but the tiny muslim sultanates he came from did not.
3: No Somali state. I'd say that the Somalis meet the definition of those peoples who are represented by generic "tribes," and not a state. They are a totally pastoral people, not organized at all at this time, no central anything in any way and not worthy of state status.
4: Don't give the Ethiopians Ogaden. I don't have the map right in front of me right now, but if the Ogaden map piece roughly corresponds to the Ogaden of the modern day (which contains the Haude, a vital area for Somali pastoralists and their transhumance patterns), then it shouldn't be in Ethiopian possession. The Solomonic dynasty didn't exert much control on the VERY sparse populations of that far east.
In sum, there should be unclaimed provinces in the lowlands of the horn, with generic natives to represent Somali pastoralists. So those are my recommendations. It would be a mistake to just include areas where people live who call themselves one name, yet have no central anything and are just a diverse group of tribes and things that have no connection a nation, and make them into something on the EU2 map.
Re: Re: Re: Zulus
I don't have EU2, but it does look like the extent of some of the African "nations" in EU2 are... overexagerrated? Yes. Too big, in some cases. But like I said, I don't have the game in front of me...
Originally posted by Havard
4 provinces I'd say... Zanj on the other hand are quite large...
I don't have EU2, but it does look like the extent of some of the African "nations" in EU2 are... overexagerrated? Yes. Too big, in some cases. But like I said, I don't have the game in front of me...
SirJames is right--Shaka had no part in Isandlwana (sp?), that's later... However...
Shaka has every right to be that high a leader IMO, one of the few African "Monarchs" who should. He managed to create a system of discipline and organizations that matched European organization. The problem? No guns. But he deserves every point of that, considering his centralization and especially military accomplishments.
Also, can somebody post the Ethiopian monarch list? I'd like to see it/check its accuracy.
I'm sorry for all the posts, but I'm getting rather excited... Is there an event in Ethiopia in the early 1600s about the Jesuits and Ethiopia? i.e. conversion to Catholicism? It would be a great event to have... Say, you have the choice between converting, having TREMENDOUS rebellion (- stability) problems, expelling jesuits, giving you - relations with the catholic nations or something... Emperor Susenyos and Za Dengel both converted to RC, and they both suffered tremendous rebellion--Za Dengel was overthrown, and Susenyos stepped aside, violently expelled the jesuits, and declared a return to Orthodoxy and then declared his son Fasilidas emperor. Is it in?
I plan on adding Dingiswayo on my roster of Zulu leaders...
I just need to determine just exactly how good he really was, if he really deserves to be added..... but supposedly he was mentor to Shaka.
technically, Dingiswayo was of the Mthethwa clan.... but the fact that he inspired and raised young Shaka as one of his warriors and early leiutenants, and the fact that Dingiswayo's own clan was eventually assimilated (peacefully) with Shaka's Zulu empire.... that more or less means that Dingiswayo can be considered an "honorary Zulu" or a "proto-Zulu" leader.... at least in relation to Shaka's Zulu kingdom
I just need to determine just exactly how good he really was, if he really deserves to be added..... but supposedly he was mentor to Shaka.
technically, Dingiswayo was of the Mthethwa clan.... but the fact that he inspired and raised young Shaka as one of his warriors and early leiutenants, and the fact that Dingiswayo's own clan was eventually assimilated (peacefully) with Shaka's Zulu empire.... that more or less means that Dingiswayo can be considered an "honorary Zulu" or a "proto-Zulu" leader.... at least in relation to Shaka's Zulu kingdom
Originally posted by John_Keats
I'm sorry for all the posts, but I'm getting rather excited... Is there an event in Ethiopia in the early 1600s about the Jesuits and Ethiopia? i.e. conversion to Catholicism? It would be a great event to have... Say, you have the choice between converting, having TREMENDOUS rebellion (- stability) problems, expelling jesuits, giving you - relations with the catholic nations or something... Emperor Susenyos and Za Dengel both converted to RC, and they both suffered tremendous rebellion--Za Dengel was overthrown, and Susenyos stepped down, violently expelled the jesuits, and declared a return to Orthodoxy. Is it in?
EU2 Ethiopia is almost exactly the same as the original IGC Ehtiopia in EU1
I'm assuming you have played IGC Ethiopia in EU1
the leader files are the same.... Sarsa Dengel appears as their first "great leader" (leader and monarch)
then much later they get Jesus I (or something like that) as a military leader and monarch
I simply peeked at their monarch and leader files
have not yet played ETH in eu2.... so I dont know about events there
Re: Re: New Nations in Horn of Africa
Firstly, I said that I didn't think the Omoro, and especially the Somali, were nations in a modern sense. But, neither is Zanj, or Lenape, or Dakota, or about a ten other 'states' included in the game throughout North America and Africa. My point was not to prove that they were states in the sense we are used to, but that they seriously affected Ethiopian expansion, and should be modeled somehow. I didn't think of the event system, and perhaps you have a point here.
Anyway, we only have 20 free country tags, And I can think of a ton who deserve these more worldwide, from the Sulu Sultanate to a certain civilization in Columbia who's name excapes me at the moment.
Yes, you are right, Adal was a minor state. But I don't think they were minor enough that they don't merit inclusion, as Afars and Issas closely represents the land they had during their small period. The area they were in was the location of the original Axum, a nexus of African civilization for a millenia, and, as stated above, they at least have a stronger reason to exist than countries like lenape (ugh!). Plus, East Africa is given 5 contigious states, so the Horn ought to at least get 2 IMHO.
Anyway, I fully admit though that I have been bested as to knowledge though. I should stick to the areas of history I know well I guess. Unfortunately, they generally are either earlier or later than the EU era
Firstly, I said that I didn't think the Omoro, and especially the Somali, were nations in a modern sense. But, neither is Zanj, or Lenape, or Dakota, or about a ten other 'states' included in the game throughout North America and Africa. My point was not to prove that they were states in the sense we are used to, but that they seriously affected Ethiopian expansion, and should be modeled somehow. I didn't think of the event system, and perhaps you have a point here.
Anyway, we only have 20 free country tags, And I can think of a ton who deserve these more worldwide, from the Sulu Sultanate to a certain civilization in Columbia who's name excapes me at the moment.
Yes, you are right, Adal was a minor state. But I don't think they were minor enough that they don't merit inclusion, as Afars and Issas closely represents the land they had during their small period. The area they were in was the location of the original Axum, a nexus of African civilization for a millenia, and, as stated above, they at least have a stronger reason to exist than countries like lenape (ugh!). Plus, East Africa is given 5 contigious states, so the Horn ought to at least get 2 IMHO.
Anyway, I fully admit though that I have been bested as to knowledge though. I should stick to the areas of history I know well I guess. Unfortunately, they generally are either earlier or later than the EU era